I have to admit that I think I'd be lousy at co-writing. It's not because I'm a solitary creature. In fact I just got back from the monthly meeting of my local NSAI chapter and I always love those meetings and hanging out with such talented and friendly people. Most of my songs are a bit idiosyncratic - too idiosyncratic to be commercial - and I'd really have to find someone on pretty much exactly the same wavelength to spark off for it to work for either of us. This is not a counter argument to what you say above. I can see how co-writing could yield huge benefits for many, many writers. Also, I suppose any time you ask for and receive feedback and ideas from others on anything you're working on, it's a kind of co-write lite. And I'm really into that. Otherwise there would be no point in this place.

Well there are two ways to look at it. Finding people on the same wavelength is always a good thing. But hard to pull off in reality. Sometimes finding a "DIRECT OPPOSITE" can be a very interesting dynamic. John Lennon and Paul McCartney were an example of this. Paul was more direct, more playful in his melodies and lyrics, where John tended to be more cerebral and questing. I'd say they had a pretty decent matching. 

It's an indirect process. Sometimes you get together with people and it is excruciating. Sometimes it is magic where you would least expect it. And most often, one thing will lead you to another. With every songwriter you meet, you'll meet three others directly or indirectly. Sometimes you have to get yourself in the state of mind and it takes writing a few times with people to get the hang of it. But if you just work at it, you find yourself in places you didn't think you'd be. 

I've had time after time where people were very hesitant, but they pushed themselves and it led to some really great things. I once had a woman on one of the online sites, and she was very angry and bitter. She could never get anyone to listen to her songs, and the song pluggers she had paid just wasted her time and money. After a couple of years of back and forth dialogue, she finally took the plunge and started writing with people. One at a time and it was pretty slow at first. I didn't hear from her for a while.

Then a couple years go by and she comes on the thread with this great story about how she had heard one of her songs actually performed at a local club by one of the artists she had been working with. She was so moved, and had really turned around. It had led to her being a part of the artist's career, supporting her, taking her family and friends out to see her, and a pretty nice ending to the story. Might not be a number one chart hit, but beats the crap out of having another song on a computer doing nothing.

Hello MAB,

I like the title for this thread.  Most of us start out building the beast, confident our first lyric or song will be welcomed with open arms by family, friends, record labels, and the general public.  What a reality check when we start receiving our critiques, we go through the full gamut of REALLY??? You don't know what you're talking about!!!  You don't understand what the lyric was really saying   Beat?? Meter??? Progressions??? Prosody??? Structure???  It would be so easy at this point in a songwriters early journey to start developing relationships.

I began writing songs in the mid 1970's with a friend who had some ties to Nashville as a back up guitarist.  He took two of my songs to a demo studio along with two others from a pro writer, performed, recorded, and had some 45's pressed, then started a regional tour in the southeast with his band pushing the record with the pros song on side A and mine on side B.  Things didn't work out with the tour, but I was on cloud nine just to see and hear my song on a record.  I was hooked at that point with out knowing what direction to go. 

Fast forward to 2009, I became a member of SW101 and began posting lyrics and began getting critiques and a lot of good advice from seasoned members, and at this point I began to understand the importance of developing relationships.  I began to collaborate with other members, Sarah Williams, JD Stanzel, Fran Williams, Carroll Kiphen, and a few others.  I also received invaluable support and encouragement from other members which gave me the confidence to post my lyrics with music which lead to critiques exposing my strengths, weaknesses, and better ways to improve.

Over the past few years, I have begun to reach out to some local artists, from different genres, some looking for fresh songs, some looking for someone else to pick with, and some wanting cowriters, but all opening my eyes as what is really out there, and what their ambitions are.  The one thing I notice is that most of them really don't know how to get where they want to be, but they have a burning desire.  I have a desire to encourage them as I would my friends online and to work with them to help reach their goals.  A few have done a some of my songs in small private venues, which is good for all of us, hopefully we will draw attention to ourselves, it will take getting out there.

Your turn

Hello y'all. Great thread.

Deacon, I'd be interested in knowing how you made those connections with local artists. It's something I've been working on myself so I'd like to know what you've done that has worked for you. I started by connecting with people on social media: following them, commenting on their stuff. Then, I started going to their gigs (and letting them know on social media that I'd be there). This being New Zealand, the artists tend to just hang out in the bar before and after shows so I would just go up and introduce myself and shoot the breeze really. My relationships have always started by supporting local bands in ways that do not include songwriting: going to gigs, posting concert photos on social media, and even volunteering to walk around town putting up posters for them. If all it gets me is meeting some very cool people and free concert tickets, then I'm cool with that.  🙂 

MAB, one of the questions you asked really spoke to me: "What are the highs in what you are doing? What are the challenges?" The highs definitely revolve around meeting new people. The music industry attracts some pretty amazing (and kooky) people. I love it. Also, I find when I work with other people it helps me to see my own failings, which is great because if I know I suck at something, I can do something about it.

The challenges are, unfortunately, more complicated. I've worked with some pretty difficult personalities (no Gavin, I'm NOT talking about you) who take the most negative interpretation of everything or want to control the whole process. That sort of thing is hard for me who tends to consciously try to take the most positive interpretation I can and be open to being moved from my high-horse. I had one woman I worked with who absolutely exploded when I changed a couple of lines in the recording process. She claimed I was trying to elbow in on her lyric and "what gave me the right, blah, blah, blah." Quite incredible really when I was doing it as a favour (i.e., not being paid) and when I told her that I had played around with her bridge a bit to make it sing better and could she please consider my changes...nothing set in stone, this is just a suggestion, etc. So yes, personalities are a blessing and a curse. They make it all worthwhile, but also make me want to run for the hills. I have learned from the less savory experiences to get familiar with another writer BEFORE saying "yes, let's collaborate." [The ending to that story btw is that I didn't rise to the bait, maintained reason, and kept my own stunned angry, sad, disappointed self well and truly buried. She went away in a storm and came back the following day to apologize profusely at her irrational response and thanked me for being so even keeled -- lol. Of course, I didn't sleep a wink after her outburst because it was all incredibly upsetting for me. Sigh. Live and learn. It ended well, but I sure never worked with her again.]

"What can we talk about here that would help you?" Social media. I'd like to talk social media here. I loathe it, but also love it. We've peaked in our FB followers (@3.5K) and don't seem to be growing much from that despite John regularly posting some pretty neat content once or twice a week. Please don't tell me it has to be daily. It'd kill me because that would mean that I would have to contribute more than I do (which is not much -- though I do like to respond to non-native speakers when they comment on our work. Cross-cultural. Bring it on!)

Jen

I think I need some lessons from you guys. Last week a local band was playing in the local bar. They are quite well known around these parts and I had met the singer a few times, mostly in the company of her cousins, who are fabulously talented musicians a and in great demand locally and beyond. Her band plays cover songs and I spoke to her during a break, suggested they could mix in some original material and offered to send her a link to a couple of songs that I thought might work well for her. She said she would get me one of her cards, then headed off and never came back. I think she must have thought I was just a creepy dude that was best avoided, although it's not like we hadn't met before. I need to work on looking less creepy.

She did mention that the band was working on a couple of original songs, but they have been going for a few years, and I can't help feeling that, if they could write songs, they would have come up with at least one by now. I know, as MAB has mentioned before, everyone wants to play their own material, and often they are just not open to performing material from others, but, when they play covers, that's just what they are doing.

Hello Deacon,

Thanks for responding. It's all a crap shoot really. And working with other people don;t ensure that you will "hit the big time" but that you will at least "get out of your living room." 

There's this funny thing about music. It is a very emotional, very relative art. What may simply KILL some people, falls flat on others. Some of the songs we throw together in thirty minutes, turn out to be some of our most noted works, and things we obsess over, sometimes for YEARS, gets no attention and go no where. One of my most common critiques is "I can't see ONE thing WRONG with your song. I just don't see enough "RIGHT" with your song.

What I mean by that is the song my hit all the right things, the melody be nice, groove fine, message okay. Kind of like dating a "nice girl/guy." Good experience, but probably not going to make for a life partner. When those of us who do critiques look at songs, we try to be open but we are also looking at it from a few different directions:
Would I put this song in front of one of my own in presenting to an artist/publisher/producer/record label?

How would this song be in front of a live audience who didn't know you or care about your music?

Does this song stand out among the millions that are out there? 

If I were a producer of an artist and my career ride on this song, how confident would I be about it?

Would I recommend people spend MONEY on this song?

Those are some of the elements. Then there is the PERSONAL element. Sometimes those same songs can get into the public square and people go CRAZY FOR THEM! After all, how many songs on radio, the Internet, television, movies, etc. hit the charts and you go, "HUH?" You just don't get it.
And how many others just KNOCK YOU DOWN, you sing them all day, play them over and over and over, and just GO NO WHERE?

Relative business.

I've been on both sides. I written and had songs recorded by others that I KNEW were monsters. And then heard the artist do it and CRINGE!
Actually happened to me one time at a record label showcase. This new artist being produced on a label was doing one of my songs and her company had put together a "presenting showcase" where they invite publishers, producers, writers, to see the act, then submit their own songs to them for possibly making their final project. 

It was this HUGE affair with beautiful room, all decorated by her pictures, food, open bar, balloons, Ice sculptures, etc. you get the scene. I knew many members of the audience, which was like a who's who of Nashville songwriting royalty. After a rousing introduction by the label president, introducing her team and backers, the really hot band took the stage and kicked it off. Then, like magic, SHE WAS THERE! And I was pretty excited to be in the mix for this. There was a table tent with a "menu" of the songs she would perform, and mine was SIXTH! Then we realized that they had covered all the bases, except for TALENT! She was just plain MEDIOCRE. Looked very good, could sing okay but just nothing to write home about. As each song went by I could see the faces of the respective writers, who obviously thought the same thing that I did. I was not looking forward to my song. Yet, here it came, and well.....I was glad when it was over. 
This stuff happens and you just have to roll with it. 

Most other experiences have been pretty good for me. Seeing people do songs I have written on but not heard for a while is always a cool thing. And having those open up doors to OTHER opportunities are sort of what makes all this go round. 

Now most artists are really entitled and rarely know where they are going or how they are going to get there. They are so absorbed on social media and their "likes" and "views" often music is a side note. I'm not saying any of this is easy. It's not. and sometimes it doesn't yield results we would like. But you have to power through it Overall it does open your eyes and brings depth to your overall writing abilities. 

Thanks for participating and if you have some specifics on your experiences, let them fly. Any thing that relates to your own journey and what you might need to talk about is what I'm interested in. Not saying I will have the answers, but I can assure you I've probably dealt with it before and sometimes getting a little different perspective will either be a good pat on the back and an "I understand" or might provide an angle you didn't think of.

Glad you're here.

Jen, I think I've written with that same woman. LOL! Look that is pretty normal. There are some very "prickly pears" out there that have far more ego than they  really deserve. You usually find people who are very comfortable in their own skin and talent pretty open to changes and suggestions, but will sometimes push back if they feel strongly about something. I have found myself on numerous occassions, doing multiple lines in a studio, having one mix for "them" and one for "me." The idea is to encompass as many points of view as you can. And sometimes you just have to smile, bite your tongue and not repeat that experience. My guess is that you know better now and will see it coming down the road. The idea would be to have so many  songs in so many directions that one glitch like that doesn't bother you quite so much.

But it does happen and when it really gets funny is when you have more than two writers on something. I once had this guy who DROVE ME CRAZY to write with him. The majority of the co-writing I do these days is in conjunction with my "SONGWRITER TOURS" or "TEACHING EXCERCISES" through my workshops or other processes. Of course, this is not just writing songs, but doing critiques, performance tips, helping with networking (finding them other co-writers) and overall career advice. So I don't get paid to write, but to COACH. This guy, who I had known for years guilted me in to writing with him, and so I did. He's a decent guy so I tried to help him out. He brought in a title, and I actually turned it down a couple times because I felt I had heard the phrase before. 

I ended up hooking it pretty well and while he did offer some suggestions and I did incorporate them, I basically wrote most of, all the music, the groove, and the story. It was more in my "wheelhouse" than his, and in my "teaching mode:" I was trying to show him ways to get outside himself and find some different styles in writing. The song came together pretty well and he went his own way with a work tape of it. A few weeks later, he comes back to me and tells me that the title was not HIS. It was given to him by another woman, that he really didn't know and that we had to cut her in on the song. He got me her email and I contacted her. She was quite opinionated but loved what we had done. Okay. Got three writers now. 

Then, I played the song live in my home town in front of a friend of mine's home town crowd. The song went over great, and my friend, whose band was the feature that night, asked me if THEY could cut the song. Sure, I said. And got them copies of the work tape. A few months later they are going into the studio and tell me that their investors will only pay for the recording if they are part writers on the song. Great. Now I have four writers on a song. Oh well. Welcome to the modern music business. LOL! They made a couple of word suggestions which I took, and pretty soon we had a GREAT recording of the song. The tracks of which I actually used on my own project. It turned out SMOKING!

The point is, that I had to deal with a lot of "behind the scenes issues" to get the overall project done and it worked out just fine. 

Sometimes it doesn't turn out as well, but you just have to learn from the experience.

Let me address your social media question on another post. I don't know how much room we have here yet. And Gavin, I'll get to you in a second as well.

Jen, On Social media, I'm afraid I don't have any magic for you. It is the thing we are all having to do and a lot of it just plain sucks. 3.5 thousand followers are a pretty respectable following, so don't down play that. Sure we would like to double everything we do all the time, but that doesn't always work. So if you can add people a little at a time, it's better than NOT adding people a little at a time. I think we all are always look so far ahead, we don't see our own forest for the trees.

A couple of suggestions. 

#1. How much are you only depending on social media? You see, while we are in a very social media driven world when it comes to music. so is everyone else. There are millions of artists and billions of songs, so getting lost in the shuffle is almost inevitable. 

For artists, like politicians, there is a certain amount of "pressing the flesh" that has to be done. The really successful people use a combination of social media, but also are OUT there a good deal too. I know it's time consuming, but your competition does that and so do you have to. I know New Zealand is quite spread out, but these are all hurdles we have to overcome.
Do you have a geographical area that you cover?
Do you expand that geographical area? The next town or village over?

Does your music fit particular formats? We recently talked about one of the songs you and Gavin had written and there was some discussion on the genre you were working in. Are you clearly defined so that you appeal to the people you are performing for?

2. How much are you doing specifically for your fans? I see a lot of people on Facebook, You Tube, and beyond who have their own chat rooms, web pages, places where they do camera phone videos, and talk directly to their audience. I actually did this yesterday. I sometimes am asked to detail my writing and performing processes to some people that follow me. There are also people that live outside of Nashville that can;t make shows, older friends, etc. who enjoy me putting things up there Some of my former high school teachers are my biggest fans. 

A problem I personally have is CONSISTENCY. I don't do it enough. I kind of have this love hate thing with not only social media but the way the culture has deggressed and the negativity that is out there. There are so many things to dislike and I don't like to add to the pile in the "RIVER OF BITTERNESS." I see people mistreat each other so often, and sometimes I just want to throw up my hands and quit it all. 

And we have things like the recent "MUSIC MODERNIZATION ACT" which has passed our Congress and been signed into law, where creators will get more money for their work. But there are Internet platforms like SPOTIFY and PANDORA that want to pay LESS OR NOTHING for music. And the problem is that the vast, vast vast majority of artists will NEVER get enough attention to make significant money. It;'s what happens when you turn on the spigot and get millions of artists and billions of songs, all competing for people's interests. 

So I will confess to you that I am not the best to ask about social networking. But there are people who do this very well, and I'll direct you to one in particular, RICK BARKER. You can do a google search and find him. He is a former manager of Taylor Swift, and is very tech savy on Internet marketing. He has many clients who have been able to successfully take what they do and expand their reach. One female artist, lost her voice and had to stop playing her gigs here in Nashville. While she recovered she came up with this podcast of her in the morning, in her living room, playing songs and doing requests. She built it into a HUGE networking things and makes a very good living doing that. Rick advised her on all that. So he knows his stuff. He was very helpful with Taylor when she was just getting started out.

He does web casts and has several things you can find on his site. So you might check out some of those things and see what you come up with. His courses do cost money, but he offers some free things as well. Check it  out and see what you think. Very good guy. 

The rest is just doing it, all the time. You have to make sure you know who you are artistically. And when it comes to working with others, being able to show them who you are is a big deal. Like writing itself you have to SHOW, DON'T TELL.

Hope some of this helps.

Here;s a link to one of the videos I did yesterday.

https://www.facebook.com/marcalan.barnette/posts/10161449860870640?notif_id=1552448341429764&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic

Gavin,

Good job and congratulations for taking that special first step. Sounds like a great opportunity and if you don't mind, I'll give you some suggestions that might help you open that relationship. And of course if it doesn't seem worth it or you just don't want to go there, that is fine, maybe some others can gain insight from your experiences. Everything's a "teachable moment" with me. (Jeni, you can do this too)

First of all, yeah, most of us guys have to work hard to avoid "CODS", (CREEPY OLD DUDE SYNDROME.) I mean, who would have suspicions from some older guy coming around to hot, nubile, talented, women in a bar and saying "hey, wanna talk about songwriting? Heh, heh, heh...come back to my place and i'll play you some demos. Heh, heh, heh!" 

Actually, no matter how well intentioned, we have to be careful how we approach people. Seems like you did it the right way, but they are probably a little suspicious at first, and also, they are working, so the fact of them saying they were going to get a business card and not coming back is very normal. I've had hundreds of times where I was going to get one for someone then got side tracked by dozens of people, bartenders needing to settle up on a tab, managers needing some kind of info on something, people trying to buy me a drink, some wanting CD's, some wanting pictures, some wanting me to quit hitting on their wives... Things do get in the way. So I wouldn't take that personally.

That is where YOU have to follow up, and I'll tell you about that in a second. Understand everyone you want to work with and their MOTIVATION.
Bands are pretty weird things to be in. There might be several reasons they are not focusing on original material. Among them:

They might not be interested in doing originals because they are paid to play cover material. 
They might have other projects they are involved in and not doing a "band thing."
You find a lot of band members in multiple bands, play solo or in smaller combos, or have other interests than writing in this band.
They travel and all have other jobs, leaving very little time to be creative writing.
They might simply not know how. (That is where YOU come in. THIS IS A JOB FOR THE GAVINATOR!!!!)

Here are the steps I would suggest:

#1. GET TO KNOW THE BAND. (MOST IMPORTANT). Visit their web site.
Find out about their members Find out who their influences are.

Find out the dynamic of the band. Who is the leader? Who is their "contact person? Do they have management/publishers they have to go through?

#2. Go see them again and listen to what they play. What cover songs do they do. What response to they get from the audience? Do they have regular fans or is it random or people just who go to that venue? A big plus is bringing a friend or two out to see them. Will show them you are serious and not just a creepy old guy. Unless you bring another creepy old guy and it looks like a feeding frenzy. Not good.

#3. Go through your catalog and see what you would pitch them if any? What types of tempos, grooves, sounds are they into that you might have? What kind of subject matter would they like or want to avoid? Approach it the way you would with any artist. Be respectful and businesslike. 

#4. Try to get a " sit down" meeting. Offer to buy coffee or a drink to get thirty minutes of their time. If they are in another venue, can they make a few minutes for you? BUY A CD! Or any Merchandise they might have. 

Get on their mailing list. Follow through is very important. Most people are very superficial. They tell us how great we are then never hear from them again. Out of sight, out of mind.

#5. Explain who you are, what you do. Have examples of your work, either on a phone, web site, CD, anything that can demonstrate who you are. Keep in mind that if you are trying to get to know them, YOU are the one who has to meet THEIR expectations. They are not chasing you. And keep that in mind in what you play them. If they are a country rock band, no need to play them jazz influenced piano pieces. Doubtful that has any weight with them.
Again, knowing their influences help in this direction.

#6. BE FRIENDS WITH THE BAND. We often know people for a while before we sit down and write with them. It is always about getting to know someone. You might not be a good fit and nobody has endless time to waste. They might not be interested in what you do. I know this is harsh, but people are really only going to be interested in working with someone they like. They already have a ton going on. If they are a band, half of their  energy and time is keeping peace between the members. Everyone has a chip on their shoulder over something and a lot of time, band members spend as much time apologizing to each other over silly things they say, or personality conflicts. How would you have liked to pitch songs to Fleetwood Mac in their heyday? 

#7. Let them KNOW YOU. You should explain how you got where you are. what is your musical background and influences. Is there any common ground? Explain about this web site. Invite them over. Tell them there are some people including this goofball from Nashville who might be able to give them some tips. And if they come over, make sure you let everyone know, and we can welcome them for being here.

#8. Don't put your eggs in one basket. If they play this venue, there are probably more. Try the same process with others. Sometimes only one or two in a band might have a slight inkling of doing something. And if they say "No thanks," understand that, wish them well and move on. Try and stay friends, and preserve the relationship.

#9. REPEAT PROCESS. It's like sales. you have to knock on a bunch of doors to get a "YES." 

I think if you do some or most of these, you will find things get interesting. It might be slow at first, but you made the effort. Fall up and let them get to know you, then see where it goes. IF nothing else, it may challenge you to write something specifically for them. Again, another pitch opportunity there and a way to get you to look at other types of music.

Let us know how it progresses. Thanks for participating in the conversation.

Posted by: Mabbo

Here;s a link to one of the videos I did yesterday.

https://www.facebook.com/marcalan.barnette/posts/10161449860870640?notif_id=1552448341429764&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic

🙁    The link isn't working for me.  🙁

Are we friends on Facebook? If not, send me a friend request and we'll see if that helps. I clicked on it three times and it took me right to it. But Facebook can be an odd animal. I've been going through this odd stuff this week in that I had "too many Facebook friends. Over 5000 of them. I had some people asking me why I did not "Friend them" because they couldn't get in. So I started going through my friends list and while I actually did know a lot of those people, although I had never FRIENDED THEM in the first place. And then I weeded out 855 people that I had NO IDEA who they were, how they ended up on my "friend page." And I am still not all the way through it. Probably another thousand to go.
So send me a friend request and we'll see if that has something to do with it. I told you, I'm not the best to talk to about Social media. I kind of SUCK!

Posted by: Mabbo

...

A couple of suggestions. 

#1. How much are you only depending on social media? ......

Does your music fit particular formats? We recently talked about one of the songs you and Gavin had written and there was some discussion on the genre you were working in. Are you clearly defined so that you appeal to the people you are performing for?....

#2. How much are you doing specifically for your fans?.....

A problem I personally have is CONSISTENCY. I don't do it enough. I kind of have this love hate thing with not only social media..........

....there are people who do this very well, and I'll direct you to one in particular, RICK BARKER. You can do a google search and find him.......

The rest is just doing it, all the time. You have to make sure you know who you are artistically. And when it comes to working with others, being able to show them who you are is a big deal. Like writing itself you have to SHOW, DON'T TELL.

Hope some of this helps.

Yes. Very helpful. Thank you Marc. I'll check out Rick's page. 

#1 With Evans and Stokes we are 100% social media. Because we are a "virtual band" we can't really press hands with folks. Beyond our digital presence, we are nothing. We don't play gigs (though we've been asked to) because we CAN'T play gigs. So we just limit ourselves to forum activity, facebook, Twitter, and website. With my own work, I'm the exact opposite. I've got NO social media presence (apart from a few songs posted on SoundCloud) and while Gavin kindly made me a website template, I have yet to do anything with it. I am always conveniently finding something else that needs doing. Sigh.

That said, I'm happy to get out there and talk to folks about my work (or theirs).  🙂

#2 How much are we doing specifically for our fans? Nothing. And there's the light bulb moment. Ahhhhh. Right. Got it. Gonna do that. Thanks.

Consistency is my problem too. It's a motivation thing for me. Sigh.

You also mentioned knowing who you are artistically. Because I like writing across genres, I've struggled to define myself. My approach has been to have a clear demarcation between the work I do with John (which is rock and metal) and the work I do for myself and with other collaborators (which is blues, jazz, and folk). This idea of defining oneself is one of the reasons I've found it so hard to make a solo artist's page for myself on FB and make a website to go with it. I have always been a jack of all trades in pretty much every aspect of my life. How do I define that clearly? It always ends up in the too hard basket. lol

Posted by: Mabbo

So send me a friend request and we'll see if that has something to do with it. I told you, I'm not the best to talk to about Social media. I kind of SUCK!

You suck??? No. I suck...cause I don't even know how to make a friend request.  ? ? ? 

I'll see if I can figure this out. It's just a shell account that I use to access the Evans and Stokes site (which doesn't allow us to friend anyone because of the type of page it is. Weird I know.)