Polly,

I've learned over the years that you really don't have to take MAB so personally. He does have a lot of experience, and MAB writes books about "the in's and out's of the music industry" based upon "his" perspective and experience. If he seems discouraging it's only because, for 99% of people who seek recognition in the music industry, the industry IS very discouraging... and MABs brain is always STUCK IN THAT MODE. LOL, He's really not picking on YOU Polly, he just seems to forget who his "audience" is sometimes... Most of us out here in cyberspace, or even the open mics, are just amateurs entertaining each other 🙂

@japov

I don't write the kind of songs that the general public would like, and I am never going to. Poets don't try to make their poems catchy and commercial (unless they're trying to sell them to Hallmark), and I don't think songwriters should have to either. If we aren't trying to make money -- and I said repeatedly that I am not -- then we can strive to write good quality songs that are not commercial. 

All through the conversation I could tell he thinks my songs could not possibly be good quality. I must be like all those other self-indulgent boring depressing songwriters. And I kept repeating that he really does not have evidence for that. Even the one song I posted is an example of a song with a positive message. He didn't like the song, but at least notice that not all my songs are depressing.

I really work hard on quality, in every aspect of my songs. There are, and have been, people who genuinely love my songs and think they are unusual. I am writing for that kind of person, who is open to folk and traditional styles, and somewhat poetic lyrics.

Also I have NEVER written a song that sounds like another song, and I never would. Only someone with minimal experience writing music would ever do that. If you understand music then you know that two songs can be very similar yet sound completely different. 

Yes, I'm stuck that people would actually like people to like their music. But as I've said over and over, mine is an opinion, Japov as usual, misses that part. So do what works for you, and don't do what doesn't work for you. About as far as the conversation can go. I'm out. Good luck to you all.

@mabbo

Maybe we want certain kinds of people to like our music.

You know, I'm sorry I interrupted your thread Polly. I won't make that mistake again.

Posted by: @mabbo

Yes, I'm stuck that people would actually like people to like their music. But as I've said over and over, mine is an opinion, Japov as usual, misses that part. So do what works for you, and don't do what doesn't work for you. About as far as the conversation can go. I'm out. Good luck to you all.

 

MAB, considering our history lol..., I completely understand your "knee-jerk" reaction to me here; I'm the one who's interrupting and I apologize. However, consider for a moment... this is the first time I've been patient enough to bite my lip and watch you have this conversation with someone "ELSE". I beg you now Marc, take a breath... go back and re-read my post 🙂

If I could sound like this, I would have reached my goal. And SOME people would listen.

@polly

Enjoyed the video. I immediately realized she wasn't American, not just by the accent but by the style which, like a lot of modern English folks music is heavily influenced by the Irish. This is a good thing as most old traditional English songs are pretty dull in comparison to those of their neighbors. Talking of the accent, it's always struck me as odd that, ever since Steeleye Span in the 70s, English folk singers have been convinced that in order to be authentic they have to sing through their noses in a loose approximation of a Devon or Somerset accent even when they come from London or Manchester or, as in this case, Yorkshire. 😉

I notice on her YouTube channel she does a cover of a Taylor Swift song LOL. Actually, I think her version kind of shows how the song itself is mediocre and the original version relies on the production to make it interesting.

Polly, I think it's fine to have songs that will only be appreciated by a few people and not "the general public," but the folk performances I have enjoyed the most, in concert halls or small bar venues, have always mixed it up. People listen more closely to poetic lyrics and more intricate or less immediate melodies if they are interspersed with other fare that induces laughter or invites them to sing along or at least tap their toes. This applies in all kinds of art. Shakespeare's tragedies and histories have comic scenes, after which the audience is more disposed to concentrate on the meatier matters. In music, I think of those moments when, after a rollicking fiddle tune, the singer waits for the applause to die down, merging into a quiet introduction and then launches into a slow air. The audience is ready for it and appreciates the contrast. This is just my view, from the perspective of an audience member rather than a performer.

@gavin

The Taylor Swift song sounds pretty good sung by Kate. It's a good dance song. It's probably good by Taylor also, I don't know never heard that.

I guess Kate does all kinds of music. That's ok, I like to dance. Anyway, I love her voice and the acoustic instruments that back her up. That is the kind of sound I would like to get, if possible. But sea shanties are the best, if you ask me. I know, no one asked me.

I have thought about this conversation, about whether the advice I got was  of value or not. I have listened to some of MAB's songs and that is definitely not the style I prefer, or what I have been working towards. It was nice to learn about the music industry, and how you can't make money by writing songs anymore. I never expected I would, actually. But the songwriting advice that seemed to be directed at me was not helpful. For one thing, he only heard one of my songs so all the assumptions about me were unjustified. I am sure they were wrong, because my songs are not self-indulgent or self-centered. Just the opposite I think. I try to channel universal themes. I seldom talk about myself in my songs. Anyway, MAB doesn't know what my songs are like.

The conversation did set me off on another self-evaluation spree, but I have to do those periodically anyway. More recording and listening to myself, critically and as objectively as possible. There are days when I hate all my songs, but there are also times when I think they are mostly pretty good. I listen to my recordings, and alternate with recordings of singers I admire, like the Kate video I posted. I listen to my songs, alternating with "real" professional songs. In general, I think I am writing the kind of songs that I like to hear. And anyone who is similar to me might like to hear them also.

But the two important points are that MAB never heard my songs (except that one), and I heard his and they are absolutely not the a style I want to copy. I did not perceive anything special about them. Of course, I didn't listen to them all. But I often hear better at the open mics, to be honest.

So MAB failed to convince me that I am worthless as a songwriter, and I am continuing with my gigantic project of finishing and learning my songs, and writing new ones. No I don't have thousands, but I have way more than the other songwriters I know. I have over a hundred that I consider pretty good. I am not counting the hundreds of others I wrote over the years that I forgot or that I decided weren't good enough.

@piq

I posted a lot of songs here before ever writing this post, or getting advice from MAB. I did absolutely nothing to discourage anyone from reviewing my songs. I reviewed other people's songs. There is hardly anyone at the MP3 forum. 

As to this thread, if you read the whole thing you would see the relentless condescension. That is not helpful. He heard one of my songs, and almost none of his criticism were about that song. They were about songs he had reviews of other people, and assumed mine would be similar.

@piq

Yes I have posted at all those. This is obviously not a place to get reviews. As for hitting back -- that is NOT something I would normally do. Others here saw that MAB's condescending attitude was extreme. Without having evidence that I did any of the things he was complaining about, he assumed that I am as naive as all the inexperienced songwriters he has known. I felt justified in saying that was not fair, since he was obviously trying to make me doubt myself. But it went on and on. Others noticed, not just me.

To be fair, Polly, your initial post was of a general nature, asking for advice on how to get people to listen to your songs, not a request for feedback on a particular song. MAB responded in a very general way, as he tends to do. I don't think he was taking aim at you or your songs in any way. I also disagree with his take on your song. The visual "show don't tell" method is one I totally agree with and usually try to follow, but there are other ways to write a song and sometimes just saying how you feel can work really well. Of course, it might be harder to write a lyric that sticks in the mind that way, because images tend to stick better than just declarations. Falling into a burning ring of fire is more memorable than being wildly in love. However, if the emotion feels real, it can be very moving. I liked your song. I didn't notice it here among all the seven pages of back and forth until now. Now, if you had posted it in the "Tune Topic" section.... 🙂

Now, does anyone have any advice for Polly regarding her original question? I offered one suggestion, but I'll admit it wasn't great. My Facebook musical advent calendar did get a few new listeners, but mostly those foolish enough to spend a few minutes with one of my songs are friends and family, so I'm not the best person to offer advice.

@gavin

I have lots of songs that are full of imagery. I have all kinds of songs. It's very hard to demonstrate your songwriting ability with only one song. I suspected that whichever one I chose it would be the wrong one. But by the way, I have listened to some of MAB's songs and he doesn't really follow his own advice. 

Yes it's true, he said his criticisms were not aimed at me personally, but then why mention the silly girl who named her song "Yesterday?" Or the songwriters who unconsciously steal famous melodies? Or the ones who only write "poor me" victim songs?

I don't do any of that! All those criticisms were in answer to my original question, so of course he expected them to apply to me. 

We really should not aim our criticisms at people we have not yet heard. Or we have only heard one of their many songs. Getting hit with an avalanche of criticism feels bad, and it is not helpful if it isn't relevant to me and my songs.

Yes I did feel very slammed. Maybe since I don't know MAB I didn't realize he gives that same advice to everyone, whether he heard their songs or not.

Posted by: @gavin

To be fair, Polly, your initial post was of a general nature, asking for advice on how to get people to listen to your songs, not a request for feedback on a particular song. MAB responded in a very general way, as he tends to do. I don't think he was taking aim at you or your songs in any way. I also disagree with his take on your song. The visual "show don't tell" method is one I totally agree with and usually try to follow, but there are other ways to write a song and sometimes just saying how you feel can work really well. Of course, it might be harder to write a lyric that sticks in the mind that way, because images tend to stick better than just declarations. Falling into a burning ring of fire is more memorable than being wildly in love. However, if the emotion feels real, it can be very moving. I liked your song. I didn't notice it here among all the seven pages of back and forth until now. Now, if you had posted it in the "Tune Topic" section.... 🙂

Now, does anyone have any advice for Polly regarding her original question? I offered one suggestion, but I'll admit it wasn't great. My Facebook musical advent calendar did get a few new listeners, but mostly those foolish enough to spend a few minutes with one of my songs are friends and family, so I'm not the best person to offer advice.

21 y/o girls in mini-skirts, prizes (mics-n-guitars) for annual participation, neon lights, free beer and wings on Wednesdays 🙂