Polly, here's a challenge for you. Write some songs that would be easy to jam to. One of the things about songwriting in regard to the general public, having an easy to sing, easy to play to song, that gets people to sing along and really hook into, is a challenge unto itself. How do you do something that is simple, yet not simplistic. There are ways of doing that.

One of the things I have always been pretty dedicated to is making my songs three things:
RELATABLE
SINGABLE
MEMORABLE

I always try to keep chord structures easily followable. A lot of this is because I dont really care for a lot of confusing chord changes, time signatures, etc. I've had to try and follow so many people over the years on their songs that you would need a decoder ring, to figure out, most of the time, I don't even try, even when asked. BEing left handed comes in handy because I can just beg out and they believe it's because I'm backwards. The reality is I just don't care.
But in playing cover songs for much of my life, you see there is a certain simplicty and symmatry to the songs that have lasted for decades. I always follow that.

I always try to make sure my choruses stand out on their own. And that they have plenty of open vowel sounds that are easy to find a harmony note and sing to. One thing about NAshville is that there are always a lot of singers around. So if you have something easily followable, you will have a twenty-thirty person choir very quickly. You had mentioned a song of mine called "CAN'T BLAME NOBODY BUT ME". That song opened up a ton of doors for me, and was always the "barn burner" at the end of the night .I've had a lot of celebrities and great singers sing along, it is always really cool. I also have some "call and answer" parts in it where soloists can wail to their hearts content. That song took me to the halls of Congress in 2006, pleading the case for songwriter's rights in the Senate and Congressional leaders. 

Hopefully, if you can drive your hook in the chorus and make sure it's easily identifiable, it really can identify your song. Trying to repeat the hook at least three times in the body of the chorus or on the "trail out" is a really good method. Think "TAKE IT EASY" by the Eagles. 

These are things I've always tried to remember in my own songs.It's always good to pull one out at a jam or guitar pull, and even on an open mic, it is a good idea to make it simple and memorable. 

All of this is more ways to think about music and what we are trying to do. If you want to bring more people into your fold, gather some more listeners or viewers to your online presence, get them to singing along. It does work.

MAB

@mabbo

Yeah that is true. I have some simple songs, and they are the ones people seem to like more. But some of my chord progressions are unpredictable and impossible to follow the first time heard. So yes, I see your point and will try to write more of the simple songs. The one I had posted here is actually one of my simple songs, but I also have others.

I usually try to have some kind of repeatable hook. But yeah, quite often I write songs that would be jam-killers.

I sure understand that. I have had to deal with A LOT of jam or writer's show killers. Hard to decipher songs are bad enough, but throw in dozens and dozens of slit your wrist depressing songs, that so many writers feel they HAVE to write to be taken seriously, is another one. Sometimes they just suck the air out of the room. And toss in a ton of them, and you have suddenly one giant self therapy session. I have been walked out on by many audiences long before I even got a chance to play because of the "Woe is me, let's all die" songs. 

So having a few, smile a bit, sing a bit, that people can ENJOY is always a good thing. Even humor is great for that. That is a "door opening song." Might not be the one that you ride to glory, but it might get you a special appointment. And being a "jam-killer" is not the most effective way to get co-writers or attention for yourself or your songs. 

One chance to make a bad first impression. 
MAB

@mabbo

I have written a lot of songs about tragedy and hardship, because it's real for everyone. And many or most traditional songs have been sad, and I resonate with that. I have written some that try to be funny, but not too many. I also write a lot of gospel and spiritual songs, which are my way of being positive. I also like to write angry songs sometimes. I have written a couple of wedding songs, and of course nobody dies in those.

Apparently pretty much all writers have written those types of songs because they are around 85-90% of what writers write. Writers write from emotion and negative, angry, tragedy, bitterness, fear, trepidation, etc. are what they write most about. So when they put hundred,then thousands amd tens of thousands, then hundreds of thousands and millions of songs roughly about the same thing, only changing the words up a bit, that is a big part of the problems. That, is nearly singlehandledly is what has ended more venues and the reason club owners, resturants, bars, etc. have stopped live music. Too depressing and running their customers off. Long before Covid drove the final nail in the coffin. 

Coming to Nashville they bring their depression with them, which is the primary time to go to the bathroom. When there is nothing but that, audiences leave. There is so much depression in society as it is, the LAST thing people do is go to music to hear more. In the 60's with protest songs, and over the generations, going back to the 20's, music was their voice and people tied into. 

Then came the Interenet. And everyone had their own soapbox. Now everyone could put their own thoughts and words down. Just like the overglut of music in any point, the "RIVER OF BITTERNESS" has turned into a flood zone. On any web site, on any platform, those are the types of songs that writers prefer and that audiences hate. 

But people write them. And write them. And write them. And write them. 

And it has taken a toll. Reinforcing negativity builds on itself and the deliterious effect is seen throughout society. Art reflects society but it also influences society. So with a constant stream and drumbeat of negativity, there is no wonder that all societies are on the edge of complete meltdown. Gasoline on a forest fire. 

There are ways to write some of those songs effectively, but they have to have some form of hope. "We have overcome" has been replaced by "We can't overcome" It's pretty depressing. 

Nothing I, or anyone can do about it, and writers are going to write what they are going to write. But if you are looking for some reasons the talent on those open mics, and venues, web sites, etc have gotten so bad in relation to talent, why there are more and more people doing it, and more and more people tuning out, that is one of the places to look. Writers can write anything they want to, but there is no right to be heard. And today, people will tune out so fast, it leaves very little standing. 

Something writers need to think about.
MAB

@mabbo

Then why is almost all bluegrass, which I love, about tragedy or death? And all folk ballads? Why are most plays, novels, and movies, unless they are comedies, about tragedy or violence. And even comedies are usually based on some kind of negativity.

I think that the era of popular music changed things, and made people expect songs to be cheery. Maybe because our society is generally in denial? Maybe the decline of religion makes it harder for people to accept that life is inevitably tragic?

I lost the person I loved most in 2018, when he was only 67. Of course I wrote songs about it. But I also write about the many other things that can go wrong in life. Because life was never meant to be one party after another, for any of us.

And happy songs have problems also. Very often the singer is telling everyone how great their life is, which does not necessarily cheer everyone up. It is just as likely to make them think "Well that's nice for her, wish my life was so perfect." The other kind of positive song I often hear is the self-help manual. Or the preachy song that warns us all to be nice to each other. 

I also sometimes write songs based on great literature, and about things I imagine but never experienced. I don't think I'm writing the same old thing with words slightly changed. I consider myself a fiction writer, always trying out different ideas.

But really, expecting songwriters to avoid negative subjects is like expecting novelists and screenwriters to avoid negative subjects. Did Shakespeare try to write only on happy themes? Songs are a form of literature, in my opinion.

Hey Polly,

I don't expect them NOT to write it. What I am saying now is that is ALL they are writing. In a songwriter's night, there are between 50-75 songs a night. And SEVENTY OF THOSE WILL BE BITTER, ANGRY, PREACHING ABOUT HOW HORRIBLE LIFE IS, ISSUE ORIENTED, HATE FILLED RANTS. Same thing on every songwriter's site, every Facebook, Twitter, Instagram viral rants.  At the same time, the interest in the general listener is almost non-existent. Which is why they have embraced the "culture of celebrity" and ended the "era of the song." 
You have to remember the reason you started this thread. Because you are trying to figure out how to build your audience and get more attention. The one thing NOT to do? That.

And it's not just that they're negative. They are hopeless. Minor chords, funeral dirge feels, it's very much like a funeral, and as it comes to the art and craft of music, and it's relationship with an audience, that's just what it is. The correlation with the overwhelming negative nosedive that started just about 20 years ago, coincide with a total collapse of music and the ability for people to actually get an audience. There is a direct correlation to it. 

And it is basically delivering the EXACT SAME THING PEOPLE DEAL WITH IN THEIR PRIVATE LIVES. It's in every part of our lives and so when you have music that simply does the same thing, it is overkill on the same message. Again, people with an 8 second attention span, will tune those out faster than anything.

Bluegrass is built upon movement and instrumentalism. They "COUNTER PROGRAM": with fast licks, uplifting melodies, sing able harmonies. And today's bluegrass is not the bluegrass of 40 years ago. It is not the negative "death in the coal mine" anymore. Having gotten a couple of bluegrass cuts in the last  couple of years, including one from Bluegrass legend Ralph Stanley's daughter, I can personally attest to this one. They are craving hope as much as anyone. 

Folk music, while it does embrace that old long story format, is frankly dying. The people who are folk aficionados are actually writers of that same music. So they have the same product also. Folk is getting close to ballroom dancing songs as the fastest disappearing format. It is still out there, but having as rough or rougher times than just about any other music.

There are exceptions of course, but it is usually due to "counter programming. " Taylor Swift built a career on this. While many of her songs were angry and "male bashing" songs, (which I designate "ACSS" "Angry Chick Singer Syndrome" songs) did it in an  interesting way, in counter programming with up tempo and infectious melodies and lyrics that were all about "woman empowerment." all her songs were about getting OVER the relationship and moving on. That, is what women will jump on the bandwagon of. She also uses the two best friends of a songwriter, Humor and irony. You can get away with pretty much anything if you do it with a smile. 
Guy's will do the same thing in "DDSS" Depressed Dude Singer Syndrome" and can hang in there with anyone on the "slit your wrist lottery,. "They are equally ignored. 

Now before you think I'm just on my own rant, I'll tell you this. Most successful songs are NOT "up-tempo and happy." Most are not. Most are "MID TEMPO and NOT DEPRESSING".   Big difference. They are about real issues and real life, but tend to find the "rope of hope" or the "Twist on the Tale" that makes a listener go "wow! I didn't even think of it like that." And that, in a nutshell are what we are trying to do, to get any attention at all.

you see, I don't care about fame or money. Makes no difference to me what a writer writes. But I am watching the complete collapse of an art form, and mostly because it's doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. That is called "INSANITY" and that is what most songwriters are doing. Killing what they do before they even get a chance to do it.

I am only interested in writers getting people to listen to them. And watching them throw themselves off a cliff, like lemmings because they do the same thing that already is not working, makes no sense to me. At any rate, it really doesn't make any difference to me. My career is at the end. I will probably not be doing music soon and I'm happy to let whatever happens happen. But while I can point out some tips that work, I try to do it. 
But you started this by asking how you can get more people to tune into what you do and more opportunities. I can guarantee you that one thing that WON'T work is doing the same thing that everyone else is doing. Any writer can and will do what they are going to do.

I just try to show them where the cliff is before they cast themselves off of it.

MAB

@mabbo

Ok, but you are assuming my songs are just the same old thing, which is not really fair. It is hard to give someone advice without knowing who or what they really are, and assuming they are just like thousands of others you have heard.

But yes, I love the old bluegrass, the Carter Family, and I love old country like Hank Williams. I can easily think of many many great songs that were sad. The unspoken hope in most traditional songs is spiritual, but so many Americans have turned away from that. Gillian Welch has some songs I like, such as By the Mark. I first heard it at the jam sessions and we all loved it. Modern Americans might not like the images of nails stuck in some poor guy's hands. I am not a Christian, but I resonate with those images, and the fact that life on earth is a struggle.

Traditional music isn't nearly as popular as commercial music, of course, that can be easily seen by hit counts on youtube. Gillian Welch doesn't have a billion hits like Billie Eilish. Even in my generation only a minority love traditional music, and maybe when we die it will die. I don't know. But that's like expecting all the great literary classics to die also, and they won't. (Well unless the progressive censors have their way and burn everything that isn't politically correct.)

Anyway, I do think you have given me advice based on assumptions about me which may or may not be true. It is, however, important for me to face the fact that I don't have a popular style. When people don't listen to me, it isn't because my music doesn't sound good, it's more likely because you can't dance to it.

Polly,

I'm not talking about you per, sey, as you know I have only really heard one of your songs, which we've discussed. I'm responding to what YOU said. 

"I have written a lot of songs about tragedy and hardship, because it's real for everyone. And many or most traditional songs have been sad, and I resonate with that. I have written some that try to be funny, but not too many. I also write a lot of gospel and spiritual songs, which are my way of being positive. I also like to write angry songs sometimes." 

I am talking about what a VAST MAJORITY of writers write now. There is very little OTHER than songs of misery. And it is directly related to what I've dealt with from songwriters, from venues, from venue operators. They have stopped having live original music and one of the reasons are "songwriters who are running their customers out." At the same time I've listened endlessly to people bringing their depressing songs to me, through all the things I've done. Any grouping of songs are going to have up to 90% of pure negativity. 

I've heard them endlessly on web sites, even places here. And I believe that you have even mentioned somethnig about it in tyour posts. I've talked to publishers who won't even listen to anything from anyone they don't know basically becasuse they don't care anything about "self indulgent therapy sessions." And as one who has tried to get the general public in all kinds of venues and settings out to see writers for years (including coming to see me) experience more than a few eye rolls and "you've got to be kidding" looks. Taking friends of mine to shows that I played on and having to sit through one depressing self indulgent song after another. As one woman said to me once, "I am not paying for THEIR self therapy."

It's more or less the "EYE ORE" syndrome. The character from Winnie the Poo series that is always in the dour, depressing mood. That;s all there seems to be now. In life it is bad enough. When music simply echoes the life people are already experiencing there is no longer the sense of "camaraderi" and more of the "I don't care about YOUR PROBLEMS. I've got MY OWN PROBLEMS." 

As I have said before, I only respond to things you say or what I observe. Not hearing your songs I can;t say so but if you say you've written a lot on tragedy and hardship, I can tell you that in a quest to add more people to your listenership, to get more opportunities, be invited onto more shows, if you do that, that is a central reason for your frustration in your efforts. The main reason has nothing to do with a song being good or bad. It's just the same as everyone else is doing. Again, doing the same thing and expecting a different result is always going to fall short. That's about all I can say about that.

MAB

@mabbo

I don't think mine are self-indulgent. I don't think I am like that at all. I do hear plenty of self-involved songs by amateurs at the open mics, but they are very seldom on universal tragic themes. 

What I hear a lot now are political songs, bashing the opposition. They don't care that some of their listeners might not be on their political wavelength. I also hear a lot of  "hope the pandemic ends soon" songs. I very seldom hear any songs that are fictional like mine. Most songwriters I know only look at things from within their own life, and their own historical framework. 

I don't know if I have been hearing any of the kind of dirge-like depressing songs you are talking about at the open mics. I know that if a song is depressing but beautiful and well-written it will get my attention. But that could be just me. 

Polly, again, I'm not nessasarily talking about you, haven't heard enough of your songs, but most singers and writers don't thikn they are self indulgent until you sort of show them what it is. It is portraying THEMSELVES as the VICTIM in every situation.
"You broke my heart...you destroyed me....you cheated on me....Life has treated me horrible, look at how much I've been affected by covid...everybody in the world hates me....." All of those are the types of songs they write. Which is what writers do. Write about what they see and how it affects them. Anything that portrays the singer as affected by everything and having no power. That is self indulgence. And that is what most people write.

Amateur writers write what they want to say.

Professional writers write what audiences want to hear. 

Another problem are the tempos that are played with most songs. They are BALLADS, which are the EBOLA virus of music. The songs you hear on the radio, those that have lasted througout time are POWER BALLADS, with usually uplifting choruses that inspire people. The ballads written by most of the writers I talk about are just slow, dirge like songs. The chord structures are usually a lot of minor chords which display negativity. And there is really very little differentiation in choruses and verses. They almost sound completely the same throughout the song. 

MAB

@mabbo

Yeah, I don't write self-centered poor me songs. I try to do the opposite. I know I keep saying I'm different, and maybe I am not different, how can I really tell. But I am listening to your advice and I understand it, and I will take it seriously.

But I think I am a little different, because I have more of a literary background and more of a musical background than most of the songwriters I know.

Well again, I can't say having only seen one of your songs. I'm speaking in generalities of what I have seen in my career. I will tell you this though. I've had a lot of people sit down with me, and I go through this sort of conversation. And they will either say "well I  don't have any songs like that" or "Yes, I hate it when people do that!" Then they will bring out their songs and they do ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!! It gets pretty funny actually because they really don't think of their music like that. But sure enough, once you start looking for it, it gets more prevelant than most people realize.

@mabbo

Well you are going to assume I am like everybody no matter what I say. I can't imagine I have the kind of naivete you described, like the girl who named her song Yesterday. I have so many thousands of songs in my mental database, I have paid careful attention to songs all my life. I know what I love and I know what I hate. I can't believe I am writing songs that I would hate if someone else wrote them. 

But we are having one of those conversations where no one can prove anything, sort of like debating over whether there is a god. Your opinions are based on extensive experience with many songwriters, and naturally you apply that to me. And there is no use in my trying to defend myself because we are not presenting evidence in this "court."

Polly,

Once again, I'm not talking about you. You are telling me things about you, I tell you what I've seen from others. From the beginning of this conversation it has been to answer questions you have brought up about trying to get more opportunities and get past the open mics. I'm telling you things that other people do, other expamples of some pretty common traits of songwriters. I also have told you that it's happened to me as well. Having things that unconciously happen and sound like other things are not only a possibility, but a probability, because there are only so many emotions, so many notes, it just happens.

I've found myself in the round at the Bluebird getting ready to play a new song of mine only to find out that it is actually EXACTLY like one of my friends. It just happens. As far as subject matter, as far as types of songs, as far as negative verses positive, etc. I am merely responding to things that you have said. I don't have anything else to go on. And at any rate, this entire conversation is about finding things in yourself, making sure your music is what you want it to be, and looking at what you are doing, through the eyes of your listener, in order to streamline what you are doing. 

You have a lot of songs. That is good. you can go through and find things that you feel best represent you and keep at those. Then you can go through things you are working on and if they have some of these characteristics, you can either adapt them, or move on to other things. It's all just designed to take the information that you have, and put it into some practical application situations.

This is all just general songwriting information, about what writers do. You can take it or leave it. As I've said continually, mine are just opinions based upon what I have seen and what I have to apply to my own work.

MAB