Frankly, welcome to the real world of modern day music. In the late 90's, I attended a major panel discussion featuring the top songwriters, producers, publishers, labels, PROS. And two "tech guys." They were there to introduce us to the next big thing called "THE INTERWEB" which was going to send our music around the world, allow artists to be introduced to the world, to tour without having to leave our houses, etc. 
Toward the end, one of the tech guys said "In the future, songwriters will have to get used to doing without royalties, because those won't be there anymore."

A very successful, famous songwriter sitting two tables away from me, raised his hand and asked "How will a writer make a living?" 

The Tech guy said "YOU WON'T"

From that moment on, the world changed. Mainly with the hit writers and publishers, they became the producers, and developed the artists. Everything went inside. At the same time, the supply of writers, artists, book authors, bloggers, opinion makers,  television producers, movie producers, painters, photographers, musicians, etc. all inceased hundreds of thousands of times. 
It is estimated there are between 30-60 million people trying to be content creators. Anyone can do it. They write out a few lines, play a few chords, do a camera phone video, put it on a Internet platform, and boom! They are musicians.

Do real checks on your music. Are you doing the same things, sounding the same way, songs having the same lines, titles, melodies of pretty much EVERY BODY OUT THERE? Most songs and songwriters are neither good nor bad. Most are just forgettable. Most of all of our songs, no matter which ones we think are "LIFE ALTERING" are simply "good ideas at the time. We love them for a while, then replace them with other songs. 
Its as important to find out what NOT TO DO, as it is what TO DO. Most artists, songs, careers now are simply retreads of other people. The music business is a very follow the leader business. 
What stands out among your audiences? Most requested? What gets and keeps the most attention?

Find your niche and support group.
There are endless people in your same boat. Find people you like their music, support them, find web sites that cater to your type of music.

Try to co-write.
It's a little strange to some people, particularly folkie type people. "These are MY SONGS!" "Van Gogh didn't CO-PAINT!"
There are two reasons to co-write. One is the exchange of ideas, styles, getting yourself out of your own way.
The second is PURE POLITICAL. Everyone knows someone you don't. And if you have a few co-writing partners, you have access to their fans, their friends, their co-writers. It's a very cut throat business no matter what you do. 
Everyone is your potential ally. Or your potential competition.
Building ALLIES, can go a long way to get more on your side.

By the way. The "open mics" are just to get the initial attention. Out of that you hope to get one, two, four, ten people each time who want to see JUST you. Having your own "Facebook" live or being part of a smaller "Zoom" type group, is the next step up from that. That is about increasing your audience one person at a time. 

In the "general world" you would start in the open mics. then work your way to "invited" sets, being in a round or a feature perfomer. 

From there you are always working on your own featured sets and have audiences attending whatever you do to see you being YOU.

For a venue, bar, club, whatever, that is your ability to bring people in to eat, drink, pay money. No venue exists to simply promote you and give you a stage to perform from. They are there to make money. 

Getting some host or someone to invite you back and feature you more, is about how good you can make them look. If your music, your performance, you interaction with audiences, bring more audiences into that venue, that pod cast, that online event, you will be invited back. If you are not bring in people, you won't be invited back.

MAB

Thank MAB. I agree with all you said, it makes a lot of sense. Technology has made life difficult for all creative types.

I am not even thinking about trying to make money. Songwriting is my retirement career, and I'm just trying to be accepted and respected as a local amateur songwriter. Even that turns out to be hard. 

I have been working at this like it's a job, doing some of the things you recommend. I try to write songs that have universal meaning, not just meaningful to me personally. I listen carefully to songs I like, compare them to mine, try to figure out what mine could be lacking.

My own feeling, at this point, is that I have written some good quality songs that are different from everyone else's. Some are very simple, some are more complex. I explore different possibilities. The problem is I can't be objective about my own songs, I need to be heard and honestly critiqued. But that is so hard to find! When people say they love my songs, maybe they're just trying to be nice.

I want to find better outlets. I feel that I have been networking for years, and I know most of the local singer/songwriters. It hasn't helped much. But that's partly because live music is shut down.

I used to tell myself it doesn't matter, as long as I'm having fun writing and singing my songs. And I am. But lately I started to feel frustrated and discouraged with the online open mics. You get to sing a couple of songs, and you listen for hours, and most of what you hear is not that great. 

Anyway, thanks for answering. I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling discouraged. 

I can make my own videos of just me and my guitar, and maybe I'll start doing more of that. I can post them on various facebook songwriter groups.

Posted by: @mabbo

By the way. The "open mics" are just to get the initial attention. Out of that you hope to get one, two, four, ten people each time who want to see JUST you. Having your own "Facebook" live or being part of a smaller "Zoom" type group, is the next step up from that. That is about increasing your audience one person at a time. 

In the "general world" you would start in the open mics. then work your way to "invited" sets, being in a round or a feature perfomer. 

From there you are always working on your own featured sets and have audiences attending whatever you do to see you being YOU.

For a venue, bar, club, whatever, that is your ability to bring people in to eat, drink, pay money. No venue exists to simply promote you and give you a stage to perform from. They are there to make money. 

Getting some host or someone to invite you back and feature you more, is about how good you can make them look. If your music, your performance, you interaction with audiences, bring more audiences into that venue, that pod cast, that online event, you will be invited back. If you are not bring in people, you won't be invited back.

That is why it is so important to constantly do promotion for yourself and whatever forum or format you are working in. Most people today are spending about 20 hours for every one hour they spend onstage. So again, you have to work as hard off the stage as you do on the stage.

MAB

Yes, one of my goals has to get invited to showcases and featured performer sets. I had one featured performer gig right before the pandemic. I was hoping to get online ones, but haven't. I performed in a local songwriter showcase, online, recently. 

I practice, and write songs, at least 8 hours every day, and have been doing that since I retired. I want to know if I'm any good but it's so hard to find out.

Polly, EVERYONE FEELS FRUSTRATED. That's part of the whole problem.

The only reason I mentioned money is that while it might not be your principal interest, it IS the interest of venue owners, bartenders, waiters and waitresses, cooks, etc. So if you are part of a show (and yes, I know they ALL leave a lot to be desired) and they are NOT making money, that is their interest.

The same can be said for online open mics. Any thing on the Internet can only monetize if they have VIEWERS. And in many cases. SUBSCRIBERS. So if you don't contribute to that, you are not contributing to their bottom line. That is why the networking is important for you to bring VIEWERS to THEIR locations.

I usually suggest artists and writers THROW OUT the money aspect first. Most writers are as yourself, money is not the central issue or even an issue at all. You'd be amazed at how many retired people there are that do music. I would venture there are almost as many older (over 35) and retired people, as any other group in the people. The problem you have there is that everyone has THEIR OWN PRODUCT. They are not interested in anyone else. This is the problem. It's a do it yourself world.

I had a woman last week contact me on my own web site asking if she could write an article about what people can do during the pandemic to stay safer. I had to tell her that I'm sure she had good things to say that people should hear, that my web site was TOTALLY MUSIC RELATED and people came to hear what I HAD TO SAY, not anyone else.
So finding places that are conducive to what you need are a great step.

You also need to step outside of yourself. Have you gone to any songwriters festivals in your area, or even other parts of the country? 
In order to find new people, hear new people, particularly professional songwriters, which is the main competition you have to deal with when it comes to the general listening audiences, and they are often in songwriter's festivals.

The best one in my opinion, is the Frank Brown International Songwriters Festival in Perdido Key, Fla. I just got back from there in my 25th year of going. It happens every November and is always well attended. There are venues. workshops, open mics, opportunities to get together talk and guitar pulls to share music. But again, all things Covid have limited. It something you sort of have to go first before being invited. 

For Folk people, THE KERRVILLE FOLK FESTIVAL in Kervelle Texas, is top of the heap there. I've never been, don't like camping in Texas Mud but that is the one all the folkies swear by.

I think the first thing you need to do is find areas that cater to the type of music that you do. Covid is going to dicate this for probably a long time. I would not be surprised to see a couple more years of lockdowns. So most of this is going to have to be viral.
Again, it goes back to my suggestion that you find some other people who are doing what you want to do and get to know them. 

For me and everything I've ever been invovled with, the co-writing aspect is what made my career. You have to build allies. 

Good luck.
MAB

There's not a magic formula on this. You do what you do, hope that people respond positively. You can't force them, cajol them or expect anything out of them. Again, a lot of people doing this. There is no "RIGHT TO BE HEARD." Just doesn't exist. 

Let me pose a situation for you. You say that you have written hundreds of songs, have them yourself, perform them. Now the results you get are a few things here and there but no one really to give you feedback. You spend eight hours a day writing and working on what you do.

Now:
What if you spent a large part of that eight hours, cultivating relationships and building some connections to co-write.

You find two, three or more potential cowriters. Most are like you, retired, into their own stuff, but out of several people, you find a couple that you actually co write with. Those people know people and venues you don't. They really like the songs you write with them, feel a part of it. You bring something to them they didn't think of. And vice versa.
They get you on some of the web casts you didn't even know about thereby getting you around other people you didn't know. 
A couple of these might be younger artists with less life experiences. You help them write some songs that they didn[t even think of. That leads you to more writers and artists. Someone has a venue they play live and put you in their round. 

You do that once or twice and the host asks if you'd like to put together your own round. Most things are done in rounds now because very few songwriters are entertainers and can't hold an audience on their own. Also if you have two or three other friends, all playing, they bring their friends and if you do it right, you have an audience. The venue owner or host, seeing that you bring people in, and that you have other people aside from yourself doing your music, because the other artists are doing the songs as well as you, invites you to have your own night or your own time slot to do what you want to.

And so it goes. Some co-writers have their own recording equipment. Some of those songs go up on their web sites on their podcasts.
This has an effect of growing expotentially. And usually some of those artists, particularly, the young cute kind, get attention from other people, industry people or just the general audience. And all along, you are performing your own songs as well. Just have a force multiplier as more and more people hear your songs and your name. If it just all helps you get and keep attention, you have achieved your goal .To be heard.

And they tell two friends and they tell two friends.....And on and on.

Thanks MAB. Yeah most of the other singer/songwriters and musicians I know are over 60, like me, and some are retired. They finally have time for doing what they always wanted.

Thanks for the suggestions. I hate traveling so have never gone to festivals. But I have being trying, for years, to get to know all the other local singer/songwriters. Maybe I was getting somewhere, but the lockdowns interfered. Now it's mostly online, but in a way that's good because they can hear me better on zoom than in a noisy bar.

I don't know about co-writing. I love having control of the whole thing myself. Maybe I wouldn't mind getting together with a poet who can't write music. I don't know. But the poets are having an even worse time being heard now than the songwriters, so that probably wouldn't help my networking at all.

Some locals love my songs, and I feel that as long as I can be heard I can get some fans. It's being heard that, as you know, is the biggest challenge.

Polly,

As I said, outside of expanding your circle, mostly by trying to co-write and intereact with others, I don't see a lot of ways to expand a reach. Everyone now is their own artist and are all doing the same thing. But there is not a lot of ways to expand outside of just putting things out there and hoping people can find you. If there was rich companies would be doing it. They buy advertising and are able to purchse their way onto other sites, but they have money to spend doing that. 

The Internet is what replaced the horse and buggy in regards to music. AT once there were all these horses. The world revolved around the in transportation. There were companies that made bridles, saddles, tack, stables, etc. That was transportation. Then railroads, cars, interstates, planes, etc. Horses and buggies are still around but very few and very far between. The Internet replaced all of that and the main thing was putting so many people into the pipeline, the ability to get and keep any attention at all mostly ceased to exist. 

Some people, particularly younger kids who grow up with the communication skills, can generally find their way around and create viral sensations. Those of us a little older (and in music, 35 is ancient) have to do what we can the best we can. If you have gotten some attention through what you have done, I'd suggest you do that anytime you can. It's a little like actors in New York and LA. You audition, workshops, stay out there constantly. Some times you get a small part, and hope that builds to something else. 

Songwriting and music is like that. Every show is an audition. Every time you intereact with people are auditions. THe more people you know, the better off you are, but the end result is that most of the time the best we can hope for is just being able to do it. 

To me, the co-writing aspect is really the only way to extend your reach. If you have people who are involved in your songs, they might be willing to help out If not, you only have yourself to pitch promote and help yourself. Personally I've never seen that be very successful because there are no allies. People are not going to put someone else over themselves when they all have the same product. 

I would strongly suggest you find some groups to interact with so you could get some feedback on songs. Places like here are good because you can post songs and people sometimes do listen. But once again, most people are really only interested in themselves and getting them to comment or go beyond "Nice job" is tough. You could get some professional help, which is what I do, but that is stuff that you pay for. So you might not be interested in that. 

Aside from that it is just doing it all the time. If you don't like the open mics, (I don't either) and you are not able to get the features, I don't really know what to tell you. But everyone is going through the same frustration. Especially during the Pandemic. Put 50 million people all cooped up in their houses with nothing to do or nowhere to go and you are going to get all of them showing up online. I'm surprised the entire Internet doesn't just totally melt down. 

Good luck at any case.
MAB

@mabbo

Thanks mabbo, yeah I understand, it's awfully hard to attract attention. It was hard decades ago (although I never tried back then) and it's harder now because of the internet, and many millions to compete with. In addition, some of us can be ignored simply because we're old.

My goal has mostly been to feel I belong in the local singer/songwriter community (where most are old like me, or at least middle-aged). Years ago I didn't have a lot of good songs finished, and my singing wasn't so hot. So I have worked very hard on getting a lot of songs finished, and trying to make them interesting and good quality. I don't consider a song finished until I really enjoy singing and playing it, and don't get tired of it. And I work on singing every day, and have really progressed.

I attended many open mics, since it's the only way I knew of networking. I like them sometimes, and have met friends that way, and have felt appreciated at times. I always hope the open mics will lead to showcase invitations, etc., but the lockdowns have interfered somewhat. 

I don't know about co-writing. If I knew a locally famous songwriter who wanted to co-write with me, I would try. But none have asked me, and asking them would be futile. And I think I might have a lot of trouble with co-writing, since I work mainly by inspiration and can't force anything. I am always working on dozens of songs simultaneously, so as soon as I get stuck on one I move on to another. That wouldn't work so well with a co-writer who is waiting for me to get my part done. And after several years of developing my "songwriting factory" I doubt I want to suddenly change it.

It is true that, as you say, everyone is interested in their own songs, not mine. Even those who claim to be fans aren't thinking about how to promote me. I've had a couple of music partners over the years who said they loved my songs, but even they were more interested in getting attention for themselves. There is also a competitiveness factor, since I write so many more songs than anyone I know, and that can attract envy and nastiness.

Websites like this have been disappointing because, as you said, the reviews are mostly "nice job," which does not help. And we only get reviewed by those who like our songs, so we never get any constructive criticism. I have on rare occasions, and it did help, but you can't count on it. 

So maybe there is no answer, and being a songwriter might just be a curse. I started when I was 11, but as a teenager I realized it would not be a practical career. My real self was not set free until I retired 4 years ago and could devote all my time to songwriting. And then of course I want to be heard and appreciated, but that's the really hard part.

It is indeed a blessing and a curse. Most people who do music have about a three year foray into it. Most, like yourself who do it through their lives, and come back to it later, while have the time and sometimes disposable income, find they are on the back side and not many take them seriously.

Another aspect of the song critiques on places like this are multi fold. first of all most people don't know how to critique. They don't know what to say. Songs are ART and are you going to tell Picasso that he can't put the ear where the nose is supposed to be? it's all subjective and most people don;'t even know what to say. "Good job" is about the best they can do. They also don't want to be dragged into some giant ego fight over what certain people like and other people don't. 

You also have genres to deal with. You are more folkie oriented. Fine. But most folk songs are over 5 minutes long and often are written in lyrics that seem like a different language. Many songwriters have Songwriter tunnel vision, and can picture everhthing in their heads, but it doesn't translate to most people. Also many folk songs tell a story that most people are not attached to or have the time to understand it. Folk songs can be extrodinarily redundent and most of the time don't come to a point, because folk doesn't exactly have to. It doesn't have to wrap up in a neat little package like most commercial music is. And mostly the only people that like folk are other folkies. And again. most of them are writers. The same is said for bluegrass, although the skill level of the musicians in bluegrass are pretty high. But they are purests, so if your not in their "family" you don't exist. 

The same can be said for every genre. Rock, pop, rap, hip hop, blues, jazz, country, Americana, Electronic, Christian, world music, you name it, all have their own quirks and eccentricties. If you don't understand the format, it's very difficult to give accurate critiques.

I do critiques all the time. I have to do them as someone coming into Nashville, which iswhy people come to me .They are trying to guage themselves against what is here, becasue this is a music center and they are all making pilgramages here. It's going to be different in New York. LA, Chicago, Toronto, London, Australia, you name it. All rules don't always apply.

I'm sorry that I can't provide you with more tangible information on what you are looking for. Everyone is looking for the same thing. And incidentally, as far as "far as going back to 'decades ago' it was just as complicated and competitive then. I started in 1974 and have a lot of people I know and have worked with, who went back farther than that. There were different challenges but it was just as competitive in those days as it is now. Now we are just in the fishbowl of the internet and now no skill is required to get into the game. 

I do wish you well. If you have something you would like me to listen to, you can send me something privately, or we can talk away from the forums. I hope this has helped you in some ways.
MAB

@mabbo

My songs are folk-like, but they are always short about 3 and a half minutes, to fit easily into an open mic format. I have a wide range of subjects. The people who like my songs are usually other folkies, and the commercial popular types don't like my songs. And I don't like theirs. 

I have very definite taste now, as far as melody and harmony, and lyrics and topics. I usually know in the first line if I will love or hate a song, or neither. And I can usually explain why I love or hate or don't care about a song.

I like critiquing, and used to spend a lot of time at a songwriter forum that got a lot more traffic than this one. I left that one and joined this one and a couple of others, but didn't get enough reviews so I decided to focus all my energy on the open mics. And now I'm getting discouraged with them also.

I can send you a link to a song, if you wouldn't mind listening, I would appreciate that. I just have to decide which one. Some are very traditional sounding -- I also spent 10 years playing banjo at bluegrass jams, and some old time jams. Some are a little more modern, I think, because I do use some jazz-like chords at times. And sometimes the lyrics are on more modern themes.

So I don't know what song to send but I will think about it, thank you for all the thoughts. I have to accept the reality that my songs will mostly be ignored, whether or not they are good. People mostly want to hear songs by someone famous. It's kind of ridiculous that it would even matter if someone is famous or not, but it really does. People don't rely on their own judgement, they just follow the fads (not everyone, but most).

Well Polly I can't tell you what to send, I don't really know. I would suggest you send the one you feel most represents you. What expresses you as a writer and an artist, and if you had one shot to play something for anyone in the industry, what would you play?

I can tell you how I listen to music when doing critiques:

#1. As a writer. Does it make sense, is the structure there, does it melodically move and keep the song intersting, is it wrap the point up, and does it present the same thing I've heard a lot of times in a different way?

#2. As a publisher. Could I find an artist to present this to? Does it fit into an easy to package format? Would it be something I would committ resources or my reputation to? And is it something that would replace other songs in my catelog? Would I want to introduce you to other writers in my company?

#3. As a producer. Would I suggest to an artist where money is involved that this should be one of the 3, 6 10, 12 songs we are spending the companies money on?

#4. AS a label. Would this be something I would have represent our label.

#5. As a writers night host.  Would I want to put you on a show in a well sought after time slot?

#6. As a general music audience. Would this get and keep my attention?  Or would I be wanting it to be over so I could see someone else that I liked?

These are all the things I listen to music with. These are the paces I have to put my own songs and performances against as well as anyone that I am mentoring or teaching with? 

So I'll give you my opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. I do have some perametars I go by.

I have to perform on a show tonight where I am the feature, so it will probably be tomorrow before I can get back to you. But I'll look forward to hearing from you.
MAB

@mabbo

Thank you! I have to think about what song to send, I have a lot to decide from.

Hi Polly, well yes and no. Don't overthink it. Just think about the song that most people have responded to positively. People that have given you comments on, things you've played live and get a generally positive reaction. A song that makes YOU happy to perform or to show people who you are. 

Most of the time on Open mics, you have one or two songs. Start by having your best three songs, then two, then you'll find your one. It's not pressure, there is none here. This is just listening to a song. I'm no expert, publisher or any of the things I mentioned. Just have dealt with them and done some of those roles myself, so I understand how they think. And through my overall career, I've heard and critiqued a lot of songs, so I think I can give a decent perspective. 

I'm only telling you the way I listen to songs just to give you a little understanding of the peramaters I use. Sort of like going to play a game of golf. You have a tee, a long green, woods on both sides, some water or sand, and a hole at the end. The boundries are simply keeping it mostly in bounds, taking as few shots as you can to get it in the hole. How you get there is upon the skill or luck that particular day. And if you take twenty shots or shoot par, you still have those same boundries.

So don't get nervous or overthink it. Just use your own opinion of your songs and what you would like to introduce yourself to other people. That's it.
MAB