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13/06/2019 9:05 am
Hello,
The main thrust of my comments these days are that songwriters, particularly those that are not artists themselves, HAVE TO FIND ARTISTS THEMSELVES. They can no longer depend on the old route of "write songs, record demos, pitch songs, get cuts." That rarely works anymore outside of the top levels of the music industry, and even then are often no guarantee for success. It's now a "DO IT YOURSELF" world, and writers have to be PRO-ACTIVE when it comes to finding people to help with their own vision. This is the story of one who did just that.
ANDREW CAVANAH is an Internet businessman, based in Cairn's Australia. He contacted me about three years ago, saying that he was coming to the US on a vacation, and wanted to see Nashville and see how songs he had written stacked up against the "big boys" in the music industry. He wanted to do one of my "SONGWRITER'S TOURS" which are the main point of my teaching/consulting business.
My "Tours" are a full or multi day "private workshop" where I listen to songs, do performance critiques, help with overall career guidance, write new songs demonstrating techniques and processes I've learned over the years, help with networking and explain the business do's and dont's. It's a "TOUR"through the PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. People from all over, all ages, types and levels, contact me for many reasons. Some, younger artists, often with their parents or grandparents, want to have their material heard, and see what type of chance they stand. Older musicians and writers from other areas, who are trying to find a new level of their career, all seek someone to listen to their songs and abilities, looking for help. That's what I do.
Andrew, booked four days with me, and a few months after our introduction online, I was picking him up at the Nashville Greyhound station. He and his girlfriend had traveled across the US, gone to California, and other places, taken in this country. Now was his time to see how he stacked up in Nashville.
The first part was listening to his existing songs. He had many, having been a writer for a few years. One thing I noticed about his writing style was what a lot of other countries have. Their music, particularly country music, feels somewhat dated, sounding more like what Nashville was doing in the 80's and 90's. Fine, but from a different era. It is not just other countries that do this, many people past a certain age, write what they grew up with, and usually don't listen to current radio. So a lot of songs sound like older songs. Having come from the era of the 80's and 90's country, I know it well. But also know the effect it has with publishers, producers, and today most often, artists. "OLD."
Andrew was also new to co-writing. He had never done it before. Most people don't. Yet, a town like Nashville, and now the world over, is a totally co-writing world when it comes to the reality of the music industry. You are known by WHO YOU WRITE WITH, and if you are looking for "cuts" (having songs recorded by artists) you have to have that artist INVOLVED with the song. PROPRIETARY OWNERSHIP TRUMPS EVERYTHING. He still had that old mindset of writing, recording, pitching, that for the most part is gone today.
So part of Andrew's "tour" was not only learning to write songs in the room, but writing with artists, finding what THEY need, what THEY want to sing about. What subjects are interesting to them. A lot about songwriting is LISTENING, and finding the specific things that make artist do that their AUDIENCES are going to respond to. This can't be done in a vacuum and has to be involved with the artist themselves.
In order to make this happen, I brought in CHRISTINE PARRI, a friend of mine who is originally from PERTH, Australia, who has lived in Nashville for years, going for a masters degree here. She is an amazing singer, thing "AT LAST" by ETTA JAMES, and you have Christine. Also she has the stature of a 50's pin up model, tall, beautiful, and very much a mesmerizing person. We wrote one monster steamy song, "IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK" which is a classic "TORCH SONG" from an earlier era, which fits Christine's personal style. Finding the style, groove and focus, of an artist, is the point of the exercise.
WE wrote several songs over the next few days, about two a day, and those ranged from an "AC/DC style, "MADE IN AUSTRALIA", and several others from country, jazz, blues. We also met many people around the town and gave him an intro to much of what we do here. The culmination was the next week, where we did a full recording session and he left with some great experiences and great music.
My biggest contribution was getting him to understand the importance of looking in his home area for people to help him with his vision. Most people are so focused on getting songs to the hot stars in Nashville, they overlook things that might be right under their noses.
Using the information he learned here, he went back to Australia, and a few months later, contacted me that he had found an artist, a regional Aussie country singer named BENN GUNN. Benn had a pretty good career going on, and Andrew contacted him online. The songs that Andrew had written and recorded here, tweaked Benn's interest, and that began a relationship totally via SKYPE. Australia is not a country you just hop in the car, and go down the street to co-write. It might take DAYS to get across that place. And most animals and insects there can KILL YOU, so it is safer to find other alternatives.
Their relationship led to writing most of Benn's most recent record, and even cut some of the tracks long distance, in Jay's Place studios, working with the people I introduced him to. One of those people was guitar player "Chris Luzenger, who is the guitar player on everything Garth Brooks ever cut. If you want to sound like the pros, use the pros.
One of their songs, "ONLY IN AUSTRALIA," hit all the bases, and that, along with an accompanying video, caught fire, and soon was climbing the charts. It went all the way to number one and stayed there for an amazing five weeks. A year later and it is STILL on the charts, and yesterday, they notified me that it was the "LONGEST RUNNING SINGLE IN THE HISTORY OF CURRENT AUSTRALIAN CHARTS." CONGRATULATIONS GUYS. GREAT JOB!
So, this is how it works now. We can no longer depend on publishers, producers, labels, etc. We have to be proactive and find our own niche. Find our audiences, and then grow that niche. To do that, as a songwriter, you need ARTISTS. And you have to find those artists. This is one of those ways. But it does work. The proof are these guys
Thanks for reading and I hope it helps. Any questions? Here is the video below.
MAB
This topic was modified 7 years ago 2 times by Mabbo
Marc-Alan Barnette
13/06/2019 8:13 pm
Andrew was also new to co-writing. He had never done it before. Most people don't. Yet, a town like Nashville, and now the world over, is a totally co-writing world when it comes to the reality of the music industry. You are known by WHO YOU WRITE WITH, and if you are looking for "cuts" (having songs recorded by artists) you have to have that artist INVOLVED with the song. PROPRIETARY OWNERSHIP TRUMPS EVERYTHING. He still had that old mindset of writing, recording, pitching, that for the most part is gone today.
Thank you for sharing that, MAB. Could you elaborate on the your comment, "proprietary ownership trumps everything" please? Do you mean that the artist will want to be involved in the writing because that way they gain an investment in the ownership of the song?
J
https://soundcloud.com/jennystokes-nz
http://evansandstokes.com
https://www.facebook.com/evansandstokes/
Topic starter
13/06/2019 10:06 pm
Hey Jenny,
Yes. "PROPRIETARY OWNERSHIP, is being a "part" of the song. In the terms of artists, their ideas, their scenarios, their life experiences, are going to "trump" anything out there.
Let's take your recent song about the shootings that you spoke of not long ago. Now you watched that, had your experiences, what it meant to you. You wrote your own song based upon that experience. You thought about it, sweated over it. brought it to your own vision, worked on it, nurtured it, even brought it here.
Now, if you think about the time and effort you put into that. Imagine if several other people came up to you and said "yeah fine. But here is MY VERSION of that experience. What I SAW. What I EXPERIENCED. I want you to do MY SONG over your own. Now, put in that you might be writing or recording for a company that is putting pressure on you to turn in YOUR songs, and don't care about anybody else's songs. So you have your own versions, that you already feel strongly about, and the pressure of your company which pay your salary.
Which songs do you think you'd have more interest in?
YOUR'S OF COURSE. You care more about your's, It is YOUR thoughts and impressions. You don't need anyone else to tell you how to feel.
That is "proprietary ownership."
MAB
Marc-Alan Barnette
14/06/2019 6:04 am
I once saw a tune (an Ed Sheeran song) that had 7 writers! The song wasn't complicated. It certainly didn't need 7 people to polish it up. At the time, it seemed really odd to me. But I guess that's the kind of thing you're talking about. It was probably a case of someone writing a tune and Ed saying, "hey, I like that, but I want to change x and y." Then the producer gets in there and so on and so on. Everyone wants a piece of the action and if they have ownership they're going to actually care about the outcome...even if it's only 1/7th piece of the pie...and then if you add in ownership on an emotional level (it's a song they connect with) they'll work even harder for the song. That makes sense.
https://soundcloud.com/jennystokes-nz
http://evansandstokes.com
https://www.facebook.com/evansandstokes/
Topic starter
14/06/2019 9:01 am
Jenny,
You are correct and that has been a bit of a problem for a couple of decades now. The rock era had done it for a long time when you would have a band writing on a song. Actually one or two were actually the writers, but because of the "band dynamic" you would have to cut others in. Even the Beatles, had songs they cut Ringo and George in at a time before they really did a lot. So it was very common in rock to have several writers.
Throughout history, there were producers and even "sound effects people" that got credit on songs that might not be deserved. It went the other way too. Certain people that had a LOT to do with a song, didn't get credit, a recent court ruling happened on a "Pink Floyd song, "THE GREAT GIG IN THE SKY" finally gave a songwriting share to CLAIRE TORRY from that song from the 1973 album DARK SIDE OF THE MOON. Claire was actually a session singer that just came in and sort of free style "ooohdd" and "aaaaaaad" all through the song. She did it in one take, was great, they paid her and were gone. But it was such a strong point of the song it actually MADE the song. So people felt she deserved a part of the songwriting. Last year she was finally awarded it.
I consistently write songs with people on their ideas sometime or where I completely make up everything. Every note, every line, the concept etc. I don't have any problem sharing credit because that is the deal. I'm teaching the PROCESS for doing this. And in many cases, it is an idea or even part of their lives that I'm writing about. But it can get a little dicey.
I had a guy approach me that I had known for many years. He was a decent guy but to tell you the truth, I never cared for his music. He was also a bit "Ghermy" (Pronounced GURMY). These are people that are constantly trying to get you to work with them and almost beg you to do so. Sometimes they "guilt" you into it. This guy kind of bothered me for about a year. I finally got together with him. He really didn;'t have any ideas I found interesting. But he had this one title on a song, that he really wanted to write. I turned it down a couple of times because I thought I had seen it done before, when I was a kid, It was called "BAMATIZED". My home state is "ALABAMA" and we call that "BAMA." "BAMATIZED", his title was something I thought I had seen on T shirts when I was a kid and would go to the beach.
So we wrote this song. Essentially, he had the title, I wrote the song. It made sense because I was from there and understood the whole dynamic of the song. I used my experiences and almost made it like a travel log on how great I think the state is. It actually turned out really good and I was surprised with myself.
So the guy goes on and I a few weeks later, I performed the song on a show in my home state opening for the band of a another friend of mine. They LOVED the song and wanted to record it. The problem was that their investors (and most people have those now) were not going to pay for the recording if they were not writers on the song. So they changed a couple of words and part of a line and we cut them in.
Okay, I understand, creative energy in the room. Fine. Then, after the song was RECORDED, the first guy comes back and tells me he actually got the title from ANOTHER WOMAN he only knew online. This woman had already gone and paid for a domain name on the song, and was all excited about being a part of a cool song. Great. Now I've got three co-writers, on a song that I am the only one who actually "WROTE" the song. But in order to move it forward, you have to have all these other considerations.
And if you don't pay attention to them, they can cause some really weird problems later. If you get into any litigation on songs (which can take years and sometimes decades) NO ROYALTIES CAN BE PAID UNTIL ALL LITIGATION IS SETTLED. So imagine having a song with hundreds of thousands of dollars in royalties being held up for years on a song. That is a case that Michael Jackson went through.
In the end, the song turned out great but was only a regional song. I put it on a CD, the band put it on their CD, and everyone is happy. And the first guy, NEVER EVEN PLAYS THE SONG. Oh well.
The other side happens too. I've gotten some major cuts on songs I didn't have a lot to do with. Sometimes other writers just run off with the idea and you get nothing in. Sometimes you just run off and get nothing in. It's just part of it. Writing is rarely 50/50.
But a lot of it has gotten out of hand. Now, in rock, pop, rap and hip hop, it is normal to have 5-14 writers on it. Some do "beats" or sound effects". Some just are in the room at the time. Some will throw in a word or phrase. Some do parts of tracks only. I read a story recently on some big pop hit song where two writers came in the room, had their computer fired up, wrote the music and effects part of the chorus, finished that, shut their computer down, walked out and that was it.
A guy I know, a very famous writer named Mac Davis, was doing a show a couple years ago and played this one guitar phrase. He said "Does anybody know this?" The whole crowd shouted "YES!" They all knew it, but I didn't. Then he played the other parts of the song it was a part of. It was a huge hit song by the artist BRUNO MARRS. But Mac had only written THAT ONE LINE. There were 9 writers and 12 publishers on that song. Don't ask me what it was, because I still don't know it. I'm pretty out of touch with rock and pop.
There are a lot of "WRITING TEAMS" that are involved. These are people from various companies, that always write together. They will pair up with other writing teams, and different publishers and labels get involved in a song. In the heated "trying to get and keep attention" era we are in, the more people involved, the more chances the song has to survive. So you have an artist, and one or two writing teams, and you have five, six or seven people involved with a song pretty quickly. Even though they all don't contribute, they are all connected. Kind of like that song "WAGON WHEEL" which was an old lyric lying around from Bob Dylan. Dylan only had the chorus since 1973. 25 years later Ketch Secor of THE OLD CROW MEDICINE SHOW and the phrase itself came from a song in the 1940's from an old blues singer, Big Bill Broonzey. It became a huge hit for the Medicine show and then in country with Darius Rucker. And now you hear it played anywhere there is a band. Probably 10 people have had something to do with writing that song. But the two are listed.
None of it necessarily makes the song better and there are a lot of arguments to be made that it spoils the overall product. But it is what it is. Personally I know that co-writing has made me the songwriter I am today. And I've been on both sides of the issue, so I don't have a problem. I think it's gotten pretty nuts, but it is what it is. Music, particularly commercial music, is a collaborative effort.
You have to look at it like everything else. The more you write, the better you are. The more people you work with, the better your chances of getting something to happen.
MAB
Marc-Alan Barnette
Topic starter
14/06/2019 9:16 am
Gavin, that's pretty funny. Like you, I'm not the biggest Ed Sheeran fan. Another one of the (MANY) artists out there that people go nuts over, and I just kind of look at and go..."WTF?" I frankly just don't see or hear it. But again, it is what it is. And to be honest, I haven;t heard enough of his stuff to really be fair. But when you have client after client come in and quote him as an influence, and you go to his videos and watch and hear the song, and go, "I JUST DON'T GET IT." I've seen enough.
That's the weird thing about music. What one person thinks is amazing, another will just fall flat. We all have the songs and artists on the radio, television, etc. and go "HOW THE HELL DID THAT GET UP THERE?" I mean what is the deal with this world wide DJ, who wears an electronic mouse's ears that light up, and plays dance music. "DEADMAU5." What is this? A DEEJAY who is an international celebrity? He played one of the NFL playoff games for Goodness sake! It's not even HIS MUSIC! He's a DJ. But a celebrity.
I never understand it. I could go on and on, but here is a fun one for you.
A guy I knew before he died was named MICKEY NEWBURY. Mickey was this writer out of Texas who was very well known, had a few hits back in the 60's and 70's, most notably, "JUST DROPPED IN TO SEE WHAT CONDITION MY CONDITION WAS IN." for Kenny Rogers and the First Edition, from 1969. But what he was most famous for was writing "AMERICAN FOLK TRILOGY": which became a huge standard for Elvis Presley. Elvis closed every show with it, did it on his Aloha from Hawaii show, it was ENORMOUS. And Mickey is credited with "writing it."
But EVERY ONE OF THE THREE SONGS ARE OLD FOLK SONGS THAT MICKEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH. They were,
THE BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC
ALL MY TRIALS
DIXIE.
All of those songs were written about 100 years before Mickey WAS EVEN BORN. How did he get credit for that? He just put them together.
There are many of these. The song "WILD WOOD FLOWER" was an Appalachian folk song from the 1800's. Yet Mother Maybelle Carter and the Carter family recorded it in the 20's and it is considered one of the "FOUNDING SONGS OF AMERICAN COUNTRY MUSIC." they just RECORDED IT.
This is how music works. Some people get credit for things they really didn't do. Some people don't get the credit they deserve. Just part of it. Nothing is fair. And today, with as many artists and writers that are there, you have to make exceptions for everything.
So if your Mother walks through a room while you are writing a song, better go ahead and cut her in. They all want their credit now. But don't really worry. You'll only be splitting part of a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. WE are all writing for "bragging rights" now. Damn sure ain't financial.
MAB
Marc-Alan Barnette
Topic starter
14/06/2019 9:50 am
Gavin,
I'm not really sure about Ed Sheeran, who he works with, who he writes with, but in this day and age, no matter how "self contained" you are, you are still going to be involved with the realities of business. As an artist, you get signed for your own abilities, and that is what they are attracted to you for in the first place. Then they begin to "add to the stew.
As a writer/artist, you are usually signed to a publishing company first, before the record deal is put together. You are taken to all the top other publishers, writing with their writers, writing with other artists that you are friends with. You get your own songs and many are shot down and reconfigured. You may love them yourself, but everyone thinks they can do it better. Your producer is usually a co-writer. He/she often has their own publishing company. They pitch songs from their catalog. Songs they have written themselves. Most producers will start out as artists or songwriters themselves, so they actually know what they are doing. If you are a 20 plus year old writer/artist, you need the experience of others.
As you continue on, it gets more and more involved. As the recording deal proceeds, everyone is trying to write with you. Most of the songs, you don't even have much to say about, but the label and major publishing people are trying to get their money back from their investments in writing deals, salaries, the cost of doing business. Favors are done. You have to record songs from other writers or teams because one of those people did a favor for the producer on the way up. Your' 10-12 songs that you wrote and loved, get swamped by the 20 or more songs the label, who is putting up your investment money, say you have to record before you get a chance to do yours.
The songs that YOU love, get shot full of holes by people who are in positions of power. More and more assistants come in and they have veto power. You are on labels with other artists who are also fighting for funding. Their producers, managers, etc are all trying to knock off their competition Label meetings get very contested. People yell at each other. Songs and artists get dropped. People come and go.
Then if your project ever sees the light of day, it is usually so changed, it is not even close to what you started off with. And this goes on and on as you progress. It is usually two or three albums before you start to recoup the money put into you and have more of your own say .And that is if you are successful. Sheeran's done pretty well, so he has a lot more say. But he still writes with a lot of people. So the "7 people" you saw on that song, are probably part of that.
A client I worked with, Frankie Ballard, on Warner Brothers, was told last year that while he has had three number one songs, he has to have FIVE number ones before he can start doing what he wants to do. I hope he gets that say so. Because guess who has fourteen songs written with him? YOUR'S TRULY!
That is the business of music. We are all just going to casinos, putting money in and pulling levers.
So "GOOD GAMBLING" to you all.
MAB
Marc-Alan Barnette
14/06/2019 10:26 am
...A guy I knew before he died was named MICKEY NEWBURY. Mickey was this writer out of Texas who was very well known, had a few hits back in the 60's and 70's, most notably, "JUST DROPPED IN TO SEE WHAT CONDITION MY CONDITION WAS IN." for Kenny Rogers and the First Edition, from 1969. But what he was most famous for was writing "AMERICAN FOLK TRILOGY": which became a huge standard for Elvis Presley. Elvis closed every show with it, did it on his Aloha from Hawaii show, it was ENORMOUS. And Mickey is credited with "writing it."
But EVERY ONE OF THE THREE SONGS ARE OLD FOLK SONGS THAT MICKEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH. They were,THE BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC
ALL MY TRIALS
DIXIE.All of those songs were written about 100 years before Mickey WAS EVEN BORN. How did he get credit for that? He just put them together.
MAB, I heard Tim McGraw and Jon Meacham on the radio yesterday, talking about their book and tour "Songs of America - Patriotism, Protest and the Music that Made a Nation." Talking about the problems around performing "Dixie" these days, Tim McGraw said:
"Mickey Newbury put together a trilogy of 'Dixie,' 'Battle Hymn of the Republic' and 'All My Trials,' which is an old Bahamian lullaby. And 'All My Trials' at the end really provides a perfect resolution to both of those songs, and that's the way we approach it live."
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/06/13/songs-of-america-tim-mcgraw-jon-meacham
I may or may not be an enigma
http://mysteriousbeings.com
15/06/2019 2:24 am
I had no idea cricket was so huge in India or Pakistan ?
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandid=1449856
15/06/2019 10:00 am
Lol.... I'm sorry. I guess that was kinda' weird..... It came up right after the "music history interview". Speaking of, I only found it interesting in light of the fact that America is still the youngest country on the planet and yet, still managed through its own civil war 150 years ago to set the world wide standard for freedom that is still the envy of the world today..... But let’s not talk boring racial politics...... When is this India/Pakistan cricket game?
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandid=1449856
15/06/2019 10:21 am
Tomorrow, but, if you can't wait, you can follow Australia vs Sri Lanka here.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/live/cricket/47477452
I once played briefly for the bottom team in the bottom division of the East of Scotland cricket league. The fact that they had to get me to play is a pretty strong indicator of why they occupied that spot in the cricket hierarchy. They have since gone on to far better things.
I may or may not be an enigma
http://mysteriousbeings.com
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