When i taught History i told students follow the money trail.

What resourses does one side have that the other wants. Eveything else is window dressing for the real truth.

BINGO!!! Politics in the name of God.....

This discussion confirms what I've been thinking -- the Crusades is a lyric party. Fertile ground.

No, it's not about the Children's Crusade, Gavin, but we did consider doing that one. It's actually not about one particular incident. I think I need to revisit the lyrics to make my meaning clear. Back to the drawing board.    ? 

Posted by: JAPOV

On a side note... have you ever read Dante's "Devine Comedy" ? 

Posted by: ckiphen

Been a long time! Interesting read if you can get past the archaic language.

Lord, it's been ages. Yes. I read it in Classics at school. Heavy reading for sure, but also full of great imagery. Have you heard this metal interpretation of it:

Posted by: ckiphen

When i taught History i told students follow the money trail.

What resourses does one side have that the other wants. Eveything else is window dressing for the real truth.

I didn't know you taught History, Carroll. You could do a lot lyrically with that background.

Married to the money is the lure of power. It's kinda sick really.

Posted by: Jenny Stokes

This discussion confirms what I've been thinking -- the Crusades is a lyric party. Fertile ground.

No, it's not about the Children's Crusade, Gavin, but we did consider doing that one. It's actually not about one particular incident. I think I need to revisit the lyrics to make my meaning clear. Back to the drawing board.     

Drat! I thought that was the perspective I was missing.

I was resisting the temptation of turning this into a history discussion, but it might have relevance to the lyrics. It's fashionable today to believe that the primary motivation for the Crusades was greed, but I don't buy it. To me it's clear that the primary motivation, at least of the first three crusades was faith. There were far easier ways for the greedy to become rich, and the unbelievable courage these people showed in battle doesn't come from greed. That's not to say that there weren't opportunists along for the ride, of course, or that motivations didn't change over time, when it became a case of hanging on to what they had won. This whole period fascinates me. I once wanted to write a screenplay or a novel about it. Such great larger than life but very human characters - the wise and humane Raymond of Tripoli, the heroic leper king Baldwin IV, the psychopathic Raymond of Chatillon, the decent (for his times) and incredibly fortunate Saladin, the conflicted Richard.... I assume you're going to pack them all into the song  

Well, maybe not, but I think the faith of these people is a more interesting subject for a lyric than the notion that they were just in it for the money.

For the people fighting it was about religion. The wealthy always have ulterior motives!

Don't forget Margaret of Beverley who went into battle wearing a cauldron on her head because she couldn't find a helmet. lol

When we got into the subject, we came upon dozens of fabulous stories about the people who fought these battles. Whatever the underlying motivation for the battle, the people on the ground were whipped into a religious fervor...hence 12 year old, Steven of Cloyes (failed) application to Crusade (the Children's Crusade). Total fervour there.

Given that the song is so short and we love to write epic tales, we decided to keep this one more broad in nature. In the lyrics I was hoping to convey that there were two sides (actually three) to the ongoing wars. The Christians wanted to claim Jerusalem because it was the site of the Crucifixion; the Muslims (in the time of Saladin) recaptured it as the site where (among other things) Mohammed ascended to claim the second pillar of the Muslim faith. Both parties were acting "for the glory of God." Both parties, right or wrong, were Children of God. 

Posted by: ckiphen

For the people fighting it was about religion. The wealthy always have ulterior motives!

Once a government establishes authority it must then maintain authority.... Here’s a perspective; Why would God require His "children" to wage war in defense of His honor?

Posted by: ckiphen

For the people fighting it was about religion. The wealthy always have ulterior motives!

I agree there were some like that, but for at least as many, it seems to me, the hope of absolution promised by Pope Urban was a stronger motivation, even for the rich and aristocratic - maybe even more than for others, since they had generally done worse things in their lives! When Robert the Bruce vowed to on crusade, he only stood to lose by it materially, but hoped to gain  salvation - especially as he quite possibly committed some pretty serious sins earlier in his life. When he died before he could go, he asked for his heart to be taken and buried there - hard to see a material motive. Richard the Lionheart, St. Louis - they had nothing material to gain. I'm sure a quest for glory played its part too, and by the time the fourth crusade came along, the original motivation was not much in evidence. A mixture of motivations, but to me the impulse of faith is the most interesting to write an epic Evans and Stokes song cycle around.  

Jen, believe it or not, I was about to suggest that it was a dual perspective. It depends on how you read verse 2.

Mohammed raised
In the Holy Land
They were sent to recapture the place
To the glory of God (suss)

When I first read it, I was still looking through the eyes of the crusaders from verse 1. They had heard about the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem (Mohammed raised) and now they were sent to recapture it. I should have shifted to the Muslim perspective. I think you probably do have to make this shift clearer. Also, "raised" is a strange choice of word. It makes you think he was brought up there. How about...

Prophet risen

or

Prophet ascended

From the holy rock

This makes the shift to the Muslims clearer because he's only a prophet to them.

Posted by: JAPOV

Posted by: ckiphen

For the people fighting it was about religion. The wealthy always have ulterior motives!

Once a government establishes authority it must then maintain authority.... Here’s a perspective; Why would God require His "children" to wage war in defense of His honor?

Bingo. That's the angle we took. Why indeed! Here's the full lyric:

Nice how you included the religions once shared a common origin. The koran was written several hundred years after Mohammed from stories handed down. Just as the bible has been rewritten over time. The church edited it to suit their needs.

I didn't know it was centuries later. That's fascinating.

Posted by: Jenny Stokes

Posted by: JAPOV

On a side note... have you ever read Dante's "Devine Comedy" ? 

Posted by: ckiphen

Been a long time! Interesting read if you can get past the archaic language.

Lord, it's been ages. Yes. I read it in Classics at school. Heavy reading for sure, but also full of great imagery. Have you heard this metal interpretation of it:

 

Lol, nope! Although I appreciate the musicianship, I lose interest if I can’t understand the lyrics... 🙂

Posted by: ckiphen

Nice how you included the religions once shared a common origin. The koran was written several hundred years after Mohammed from stories handed down. Just as the bible has been rewritten over time. The church edited it to suit their needs.

http://faithlenders.weebly.com/uploads/5/5/3/7/5537776/the_name_of_yeshua_revealed_in_the_old_testament.pdf