Good write up Philboy and good story about your journey so far in songwriting.  However; you mentioned you were once a "living room" songwriter; but you failed to mention how your wife Billie, first  learned about OD which soon allowed her to be convinced I was trustworthy of looking out for you if you left the house for a songwriting trip.  That okay Old Buddy, I'm used to being ignored and not given proper recognition for my efforts.  I'm sure MAB is also; so please continue on with your story.  Ha!!!

OD

I totally agree that funny songs are great in live settings. People are out to have a good time and who doesn’t want to laugh? They also provide a lot of opportunity to engage with the audience both during and between songs. They have another advantage- they usually have a conversational style that’s  easy to sing even for those who are not great singers. I have a lot of this kind of song.

On the other hand, there are not many hit recordings of funny songs. Maybe once the audience has heard the jokes once, that’s enough and without the warm feeling of connecting with a live singer in a cozy venue, the magic is gone.

I do remember some great comedy country songs but you have to go back a while.

NOW that's is how it's done! Very good, and thanks Phil. Now see how it's done OD, you can do that too.

I have my own reasons for wanting to talk about things like this. I've been doing music since 1974. I lived my entire life absorbed by music, eating, drinking and sleeping music. I have been through as much or more close opportunities than most ten or twenty people, and I am fortunate that I've been through it have no bad deals to bite me in the butt, have no regretful experiences, a MILLION friends, kids, family members for it.

But over the past 15-20 years all that is changing. Venue after venues stopping original or any music at all. Money all but disappearing in music completely. Hit writers, publishers, artists, quitting the business, giving up. Companies dying. and the general music buying public quitting any interest whatsoever in music, or much in the culture except what is in front of them at that SECOND. The art is completely going away. Any semblence of craft is completely dying. And as we are all seeing, the Internet presence, web sites, people that might even be interested in carrying on anything are all going away.

In some ways this is probably the way of things. The second anyone could do this, when anyone could throw words together with some form of rudimentary music, put it on a web site platform and get a bunch of "likes" (that are pretty much as superficial as anything else in life) the supply was going to explode and all quality would be gone.

Now people complain about even thinking about "paying for music." Musicians see things like the "Music Modernization Act'  and ask "where did all the money go and can this fix it?" NOPE. When you convince people that music is just a by product in the background of people's lives, when you give everyone the same thing over and over and over, there is no reason to pay for anything. There is no reason to have venues. There is no reason to listen to anyone doing anything for any reason.

That is where we are. A basic society that could care less about anything. The trend of the second. The disposable culture. 

My career is on the wane so it really doesn't matter that much to me. But there is something in  my nature that makes me want to at least say "Hey, if you are interested in trying to do this, here are the gigantic holes there are. Here is where you will go broke. Here is where you can fall into and never get back up. And here are some things you might think of to draw some positive attention to what you love to do. 

So that is the place I come from. I try to get people to share their stories. To know each other better. To support each other. To show them enjoyable things about this. I don't care one whit for "NASHVILLE" publishers, artists or anything commercial. I care about someone coming up and saying "I like your song. I'd like to hear more of that." Or someone finding a nice little trick to get twenty more people in to a show, or adding followers on a web site. For someone to meet a hit writer in person they may have admired and tell that hit writer (who might be all but forgotten by the rest of society) that their work meant something. I believe music is a pretty interesting thing to do and whether it's for a group of friends in a living room, or on a major concert stage, on the "Alexa echo dot" and someone smiles, laughs, sings, dances a bit, walks down memory lane at some lost love in high school, it has some importance in our lives. it is pretty cool. 

It's sad that a majority of new people will never have that experience of a first kiss listening to some really cool song they'll always remember. Going to that first concert and the electric thrill when the houselights go down and the crowd goes nuts. Seeing someone in their local club who meant a lot to them growing up. 

But there is a time and a place for everything and maybe music, affecting a large amount of people, no longer exists. Too bad. It was good while it lasted.

Holy Crap MAB, that was better than any story I could have told.  My story; nor Philboy's story; can come remotely close to yours because we both are truly a couple of amateurs that only tried to be part of the songwriting market; mostly by following you on other websites;  but not nearly as close to the music scene as you were.  While I give you all due credit for being a professional in the music business, I also recognize your career didn't end up as well as it should have; nor as well as you hoped it would.  You have more experience, insight, and wisdom than all of us put together and I appreciate you sharing your stories, wisdom,  and experiences with us.  I particularly appreciate you sharing your opinion the Nashville market does not define a songwriters journey; nor their success.  I couldn't agree with you more about the small successes most of us will experience may be someone sharing how they enjoyed hearing a song of ours we had written.  I have truly experienced that myself and I may have over looked the value of their comment because my song was not even close to being considered Nashville worthy.

Damn MAB, you are causing this old beer drinking Old Dog to get serious.  I'm not sure how to handle that part of my songwriting journey; or even that part of my life up to this point.   Awe.... slap.....slap..... come on Old Dog you can do it.

Okay, I'll share this much.  I was always a solo writer and that was okay for me to write songs that appealed to me and my beer drinking buddies.  I tried working with other songwriters but in my case none of us were very good songwriters and we kind of re-wrote each others lyrics and never got anywhere.  Oh, it was good practice and we certainly learned off each other but my personal improvements came from working with a much better songwriter than me.  That would have been you in my case along with the help of a couple of other really good songwriters; but finding a co-writer to work with can be a challenge and not assumed as being easy just because someone writes songs.  Every songwriter I know has narrowed down their list of songwriters they prefer to work with to a very small list after trying to write with so many.  Experience and chemistry determines everything. 

I'll share this also.  On a couple of occasions of a co-write, I may have had more experience than the other members; but I have never co-written a song with anyone with lessor experience than me that I didn't learn something from them; or get a good idea for a better line from them because they may have simply questioned a previous line they didn't care for.  So I certainly don't want to put the idea in anyone's mind we can only write-up to learn anything.

About the relationship factor with co-writers or even musicians we have met and worked with over the years.  For me, the relationships with people I have become life long friends with by far out weigh any song I have ever written or been a part of as a co-writer.  For me, it's not so much about the songs that have written on my musical journey; but the friends I have made along the way.  Hey, I'm still enjoying my lifelong friendship with you and Philboy, along with some folks on this site, just to prove that point.

OD

That's all I asked. Thank you

OK guys, I didn't start a new thread just to entertain MAB and OD. I have known these guys for years, so we already know each others stories.

Thanks Gavin for your interest! Now, it sure would be nice if we could get others on here to chime in. And not for me, MAB, or OD, but for everybody here. Your thoughts matter. Now make them count.

So, let me ask, are you sure you're satisfied with "putting your songs out there", on the web? Facebook. Seems like a great place to put your songs. Right? Are you making your posts global, or for friends? When you get that hundredth like, how many are from friends, and how many are from total strangers? You're not writing [just] for your friends are you?

Oh, you're also using Soundclick, SoundCloud, Reverb Nation, YouTube, Spotify, or some other web outlet? That's great! The more exposure the better. But, are you sure all those listens and views really mean your music was "listened too"? You would be surprised how many times I have clicked on a song posted on one of those sites, listened to the first 1-10 seconds, then decided, "nope. Not my kind of music". Bu to you, it looks like someone else "listened".

I will submit, the only way to know if someone "listened" to your music, is in the real world, where actual people are in an audience in front of you. You don't sing, and/or don't play an instrument? Find and make a friend that does, and that will perform your songs for you. First, if they won't perform your song, that should tell you something. Then, if they do, pay attention to the audience reaction. (Yes, you have to be there too! LOL!) I am not the best guitar player, and not the best vocalist either. (note: I will start posting some songs, just to prove that! LOL!) But there is no substitute for finding out the truth about your songwriting, other than in front of a live audience.

phil

Hi Phil. I promise I'll get in on this very interesting conversation when my time frees up a bit. In the last few days I've only had short spurts of time for chatting so a deeper, more serious subject like this one, will have to wait for me. In the meantime, I am appreciating the food for thought that y'all have put to the page.  ?

"You would be surprised how many times I have clicked on a song posted on one of those sites, listened to the first 1-10 seconds, then decided, "nope. Not my kind of music". But to you, it looks like someone else "listened".- Phil Grigg

Phil, you've actually stumbled upon the REAL nasty little secret of music in the "free music era." The vast majority of people listen just like you do. They go through and listen to less than 30 seconds, usually closer to about 8 seconds, of songs and then move on to the next song. Those "listens" don't register with the services like SPOTIFY, PANDORA, and other web based sites, that are supposed to pay out all this money to songwriters and why laws continue to be passed, like the "Music Modernization Act" will never have any bit of effect on most songwriters. If most writers and artists get a couple hundred "views" on anything they are doing well. 

Because someone "likes" or "views" you on social media, means actually nothing. Because you have "followers" really means nothing. Only by getting an actual FAN BASE, where people purposely go to and listen to your music, will any effect ever be noticed. It now takes hundreds of MILLIONS of "streams" (not "likes" or "views") to even register for any monetary gain in songs.

The reason I push so heavily for people to "get out of their living rooms" to actually contribute to web sites by investing the time to write something, why I ask questions about people's musical journey, is because that is the only way to know if people are actually paying attention. The internet is very deceptive, which is why there are so many hoaxes, schemes, scams, etc. It gives people a false sense of security that someone is "liking them" when actually its only someone clicking a mouse button before moving on to something else. Takes no effort.

When My Space and Facebook first started, a large measure of if a record company would take interest in giving an artist a record deal. If they had "Thousands of Facebook followers" they were a good  bet for development deals. One of the first question in sit down meetings with record executives would be "What is your social network presence?"
Now that is no longer applicable for record companies. It is "BUTTS IN THE SEATS." How many people do you physically bring to your shows? How many shows do you play a year? What regions do you have success in outside your home town? "

And they send label "spies" out to secretly monitor those people. So just having a "social media presence is no longer a mark of how successful a writer or artist is. Now they have to be actually DELIVERING PEOPLE.

Thanks for commenting on my question.

I'd like to just briefly add to that one MAB. I totally agree with what you've said. The 10 second listen is the bane of our existence. That said, it might be because John and I only have a small number of followers, but we've got a pretty good idea of how many of those 3.5K followers are actual fans because they're the ones we see time and again commenting, liking, loving, sharing. If you're small, you can pay attention to that kind of thing. Like the guy in Egypt who shared our material on his page and then has come back to share it again and again. Just yesterday, John sent an mp3 to a fan in Brazil. The fellow consistently engages our content so John thought it'd be nice to send him a copy of demo he did. It's not a completed song by any means, but it will be. The guy was pretty chuffed. So while record companies might look for butts on seats, we, as a virtual band, are looking to build not so much social media presence, but an engaged social network one follower at a time. 

Jen, I would say that 3.5K followers on Facebook is pretty impressive, not a small number at all.

Ha! Thank you Gavin. It's all relative I suppose. We're very pleased with that number, but in the scheme of things, it's nothing. My thinking though is that it's not the number of followers, but the number of engaged followers that is the relevant measure. 

No John, it is nothing to sneeze at, and I had mentioned that to Jenny recently. Especially if they are corresponding, commenting, and participating in your artistry, buying your downloads, sharing your music with others, etc .There is actually a figure that if you can get 5000 people to pay you $20 a year, you actually have quite a good career.

The people I am actually talking about are the people who claim THOUSANDS of followers, but never have much in the way of actual butts in the seats, actually purchasing merchandise or buying product. 

To do what you both are doing, a purely Internet based career, that is very respectable. 

One of my favorite writer friends, Scott Southworth, has actually parlayed some fan base into doing tours in Europe, the UK, Spain, France, etc. so there are ways to build that. It is difficult to only have an internet process, which again, I had expressed to Jenny, you might find it a bit harder to go beyond those numbers. But where we are in all of music is NICHEING, where an artist, group or writer, finds a loyal fan base, hooks them into their orbit and then constantly expand that orbit. There are many doing that via online today. Many make the Net work for them, but it does take a lot of effort. 

Good luck to both of  you.

Jenny! (Or is it John?) Thanks for your input! In fact, that is exactly what I'm looking for. My social media experience is almost non existent. I do have a Facebook account, but If  I'm on there more than 2-3 hours a week, it was a boring week for me for other things I do. I also have a twitter and LinkedIn account, but never use them.

So, here is what I'm looking to (maybe) do. I got my AARP magazine the other day, and one article in it was how senior citizens are using social media outlets to share their art (music, painting, books, poetry). SO, I have a YouTube account (but have no idea how to "use it" other than to put up a video I then send a link to in an email, or on Facebook), and I'm thinking of making videos of my songs. They will be simple guitar vocals, no added affects, and I plan to have a short introductory story about the song. Then, the only thing I know about "getting them out there" would to be put it on my YouTube account, and a link to it in emails to friends, and Facebook posts. I'm not looking for money, or "butts in the seats". I'm just curious to know if my music efforts would be noticed, and shared, and if other folks I have never met might like it also.

Thanks Jenny (John) for your interest and input on this topic! I just hope we have other members here that are following this thread. Then can learn a lot from posts like yours and Marc's! Not so much from me, which is the way I intended it. I guess I will have to go check out some of your music! (No. Not you Marc. I've been listening to your music for years now! LOL!! And will continue to listen)

phil

phil

Hi Phil. Ours is an unusual set of circumstances. Because I live in NZ and John lives in Pennsylvania, we can never meet to tour in any way. We've had to choose a path for getting our music heard that doesn't follow the usual advice of start local, gain a fan base there, then expand to surrounding regions, etc. One way we've tackled this problem is to market to a niche. We got REALLY specific in our niche choice. We write Christian rock/metal music. Both of us are Christian and both of us like heavy music. It's a good fit for us. It is a very narrow genre with fans scattered around the globe. For that reason alone, Facebook has been essential for getting our music heard. Potential listeners are too thinly scattered for a no-name like us to reach.

As for YouTube. There's a nut we have yet to crack. We can't figure out how to get our music heard and shared on that platform. Even our fans don't go to YouTube to like, comment, and share. Yet, they'll do that on FB. Sigh. If you make any headway there, I'd love a heads up about what you did please : )

I think your idea for simple guitar and vocals with no effects videos is a great one. We always get a great response when John does a low rez video of him playing. People like to feel like they're in your living room. That kind of video has an intimacy that one of our more heavily produced videos does not. Plus, with a story out front, folks have a chance to feel they know you. I'm terrible at that kind of stuff because once you get me talking, I don't shut up.