Hola!

Personally, the songs that have impressed me most and that I keep remembering are the ones that made me feel, that is the essence that I would like to be able to handle, make feel, whatever, but feel.
After saying this, I am very happy to see that we all do the same, in one way or another, to write songs. It's great

Mora, I totally agree with you. My guiding principle when writing a song is that it should have a purpose, and that purpose is to evoke a feeling in the listener. Before even starting to write a song, you should ask yourself why you are writing it, what is it supposed to communicate to the listener. It doesn't have to be some grand principle. It can just be to amuse, to make someone laugh or want to dance or sing along. Or it can be to make someone want to take some action to make the world a better place, or make someone cry for whatever reason - sadness, happiness, nostalgia, regret, longing.... It can be communicated mostly by the lyric or mostly by the music. However you do it, you have to be trying to make the listener feel something. Otherwise, why bother to listen. And why bother to write?

Having said that, sometimes we fall short of our own guiding principles. And then we find someone likes what we have done, and we are totally confused 🙂 Maybe we don't always know what will stir feelings in others.

Gavin, I totally agree with everything you said above.  Regardless of the topic of a song or the emotion our song may invoke with the listener, as songwriters we want to engage with the listener and we all hope they will connect with our song and enjoy their experience hearing it.   Their is an audience for every type song written whether it's a happy song, sad song, or anything in-between.  I think we would all agree with that, so by all means we should write whatever we want.  Most of my songs were written around the life experience of "love gone wrong" so it's a popular topic, I can guarantee you that.  Not only with my songs but also  songs by almost every new singer/songwriter that shows up in Nashville.  That town is loaded up with them whether they are sad, light hearted, humorous, or down right angry.  They are everywhere.

So I hope I didn't criticize the lyrics you posted above, I actually recognized the disappointment from the singer in how his relationship turned out so bad after all the effort he/she gave (at least so far without seeing the finished lyric).  I only meant to react to some comments by a few well meaning supporters, your song could become commercial and maybe it could, I'm certainly not the gate keeper for songs to be considered for recording by a major artist.  I also realize not everyone is even trying to write songs for a commercial market and I would say the songwriters that fit that category and simply loves writing songs, have the best outlook and the best chance to continue enjoying the songwriting process.

Now you certainly don't have to listen to how I would approach finishing your song idea.  Without getting into great detail whether the verses, chorus, and perhaps a bridge would work.  I (personally) would make it an empowerment type song by adding a bridge to explain the person has moved on or perhaps in a much better relationship with someone who truly appreciates the qualities the singer has to offer.  However; that is just me and I don't mean to suggest how you "should" finish your song; just how you "could" if you wanted to.

Maybe an expert like MAB will comment on this discussion and set me in my place.  I only know enough to get myself into trouble. 

OD   

Don't pull me into these. I don't do negative.

I don't see anything negative here. OD made some valid points. What's the point of posting anything if nobody offers any suggestions or constructive criticism? It's the very opposite of negative, and I appreciate it.

Gavin, that's not what I was referring to. I was speaking of songs that have a negative story in the song itself. When songs have a more somber or negative attitude on them, it limits their ability in commercial appeal.  There's nothing wrong with what OD said. He was just mentioning me to say something and I don't really say much about negative-based songs.

Ah, that makes more sense! I certainly get that for country and to varying extents for other genres too.

I posted the initial version of this at SoundCloud under this private link, if anyone wants to check it out. I'm not a singer, but I gave it a go with the help of my vocal coach, Mel O'Dyne 🙂

https://soundcloud.com/themysteriousbeings/diamonds/s-w9nxr

I changed the title to something a little more distinctive - Diamonds And Castles. It doesn't actually feature anywhere, least of all as the hook, but I reckoned if I was already breaking the rule about sad loser songs, I might as well go totus porcus and break that one too. ????

Gavin, if I may continue with the purpose of my suggestion, negative based songs have very little chance in the commercial market (as MAB noted) allow me to explain a little bit where MAB is coming from.

My point in commenting on your song was not to discredit what you had written but merely to strike down the myth a negative based song may have a commercial appeal.  To explain a little further, allow me to say your song was fine but what you had written and posted, without being the finished lyric, simply told a story about a person trying their best to make a relationship work but their partner did not appreciate their effort and soon it was over.  Nothing wrong with that and it may be relatable to every music listener; but it's the negative direction of your story line that will lose it's appeal to the Pro's in Nashville.

Remember, we are not questioning you or anyone else's right to write any song you'd like; just whether it would be considered as a commercial song in Nashville.  Once again, the only reason I responded to your lyric post in the first place was because a few members mentioned your song idea had potential for commercial appeal and I wanted to explain to you and others why that may not be the case. I only mean for my comments to be a learning experience for everyone based on my limited knowledge of Nashville and the songs that are accepted or rejected.

MAB's response is a perfect example because he noted the negative direction your song lyric was going and that is the exact response from any professional in Nashville whether it be a seasoned Pro like MAB or a Publisher or even a Label person.  The reason is they have been around Nashville for YEARS and have heard these type of songs a couple of thousand times or more and are sick of them.   Mostly because every amateur songwriter out there is gravitated to the negative side of a story and everyone showing up in Nashville is loaded with a negative type song in their song catalog.  While those of us writing songs to share with our family and friends; or perhaps on a songwriting site like this one have no idea; because we don't realize the Pro's in Nashville have had to sit through one negative type song after the other for hours on end, in every songwriting round they attend.  As I mentioned before; it's common with every new singer/songwriter first coming to town to be loaded up with negative based songs; it's also common with those that have been performing around town for years also.  Most just don't get it and they continue playing one negative song after the other until everyone is sick of them; especially the Pro's in town.

I'm not an expert by any means but even I've made enough trips to Nashville to be in the audience when everyone takes turns playing one negative song after another and I too am sick of hearing them.  Now it's understandable most of us not making frequent trips to Nashville would not be aware, and we don't hear that many on the radio so most of us would have no idea.  However try to imagine all of the Pro's in the music business for years would be sick of hearing them.  Not only from singer/songwriters on stage during a writers night but imagine the number of negative songs the publishers have had to endure over the years.  That is why I commented in an earlier post they would throw a negative song in the trash before it even got to the chorus.  

So once again, we are all allowed to write any type song we want; but realize a negative song won't go very far in Nashville and will have very little commercial appeal at all.  Realize also; I will never claim to be an expert on anything to do with songwriting or the business side of Nashville; but I've paid nearly all the cost of 45 songs professionally recorded in Nashville (some of them shouldn't have been recorded but they were) and I've made over 4 dozen trips to Nashville in the past 15 years or so.  Most of my trips were to enjoy myself and support my musical friends like MAB and others; but some of those trips were also for the purpose to learn about songwriting and the business side of Nashville as well.  I don't even consider the money I've spent or the trips I've made as "paying my dues" but I did learn a little bit along the way.  

So when I try to share my experiences with all of you that don't have the opportunity to visit Nashville or know what songs may work or may not, I have a little bit of experience to back up my opinion.  I'm certainly not a Pro like MAB or others; but I realize where they are coming from.

OD  (Good Lord, I need a beer after all of this)

Gavin, I enjoyed your song and noticed more of an Irish folk song feel but that could have been just me.

Sorry to use your post, and your song lyrics, to go so far in depth about how Nashville feels about most negative songs; but I felt the other members that don't have a chance to visit a music town like Nashville would benefit from that information.  

OD

Hello Gav,

I enjoyed this song, I liked the step into the chorus and back out again.  By the way, your voice sounds good.  Thank you for sharing, good luck and best wishes,

Speak soon

Hey guys, nice conversation.

Gavin, OD is correct on my conversations on "negative" songs. Because I was mentioned here is the only reason I came over, and my comments are purely on the tone of songs in general. Songwriters tend to gravitate to the negative. We all see many things, experience life, and it is easier to write about things that are wrong than things that are right. If you buy a car and it is a great car,  you just drive it. You might tell some friends you like it, but more than anything, you just enjoy it. If you get a lemon, YOU TELL EVERYBODY. The dealership, the salespeople, write complaint letters online, complain on YELP and any other way to get out the word.

A lot about songwriting goes the same way. Songwriters often don't keep jobs well, have problems in relationships, have problems with money, etc. Even very successful ones often have problems with fame. Which is why you see so much self destruction in artists, painters, actors, playwrites, authors, etc. They live in an often very bleak, desolate world, rarely seeing the good that is around them or that they create. I think of someone like Robin Williams, and see it quite often. It is a big part of life, and a very sad thing.

When people come to this town and pretty much all towns I've ever been in, they do tend to go for the negative. Out of 100 songs, you might that are not angry, depressing, bitter, etc. And those are not nessasarally "positive", just not totally depressing." So when I am on sites and talk to people I care about, I try to pass on the best piece of advice I ever got from my songwriting mentor, Ron Muir:

"Never write about your problems.
Half the people don't care. The other half are glad you got em."

You are DEAD ON about Irish people Gavin. Those people can't GET DEPRESSING ENOUGH. A friend of mine, Scott Southworth is KILLING IT overseas. Scotland, Ireland, Spain, France, etc. A big reason is that he is so different from everyone over there because he doesn't do much in the way of negative. They are embracing him like a rock star. But he talks about all these people that perform who are from there. Women talking about "filling their pockets up with rocks and walking into the oceans to drown themselves..." Those people have had a long history or struggle (of course everyone has had a long history of struggle) and they sure enjoy writing about it.

Everyone should write what they feel and what they know. I try to offer my perspective, but it is only an opinion. So that is where it comes from That was the only reference to "negative" that I was making. The thread is working very well. Glad everyone is here and talking about songs.

Hey Gavin, the link you did was interesting. Let me offer a suggestion. 

Your "Chorus" melody, really goes positive. It has some interesting things. What if you took the attitude "It's over now, but we've both learned something out of it and are both better for it?" And made the chorus sort of a "comment on a great relationship that simply didn't work out. You speak in the verses about things that you tried to do, so you could pretty easily make the chorus about the things that were good, but you both have to move on. Almost like the scene in the movies, where the characters say their final goodbyes and walk away. Sad but bittersweet. 

The melody works pretty well. Might be a nice approach on it. 

MAB, I was thinking along the same lines myself. It might be over but they can move on and take some good from it. As I think I said somewhere above, I don't think it's sad songs that are necessarily the problem. It's whining songs. Nobody likes a whiner, but people like folks who respond positively to things that happen to them. That female listener driving to work doesn't want to be reminded of bitter break-ups with past boyfriends but might still think fondly of someone with whom she split on friendly terms.

Anyway, I'm going to let it sit for a little while and come back to it.