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JAPOV
(@japov)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1154
 

"Industrial-Scale Burning Revolution... energy slaves, all over planet Earth... massive quantities of things to burn... men and boys, sometimes women and girls, into holes in the ground... Respiratory health epidemic... rivers of oil flowing, great lakes, an ocean of oil... plastic!!!!"............. Wow, sounds serious.....

I like to stick to the math. The entire surface area of planet earth is 197 million square miles. In 1850 there were only 1 billion people on this planet. Today there is roughly 7.5 billion. Today that 7.5 billion only occupies 10% of the surface area of land on planet earth. The total surface area of this planet is 70% water... This means, when you DO THE MATH... humans only occupy about 1% of the entire surface area of planet earth. 

So far we’ve only been figuring in terms of "surface area". So...., let’s NOW try to think three dimensionally. Consider that the atmosphere of planet earth is 300 miles thick and multiply that by 197 million mi2. Now consider the fact that we really have no idea how our atmosphere and eco-system support each other, since we know greenhouse gasses have been much higher PRE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION. We also know by far the greatest contributors to greenhouse gases are, and have always been, methane from rotting vegetation (not cow farts) and, of course, WATER VAPOR! 

People.... Please try to think. When they show you pictures of garbage in the water and smog over Los Angeles... understand, THE EARTH IS A WHOOOOOLE LOT BIGGER THAN YOUR TV SCREEN!!!

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly.... If Frito-Lay and Coca Cola are the ones primarily responsible for manufacturing all the trash, what sense does it make to allow the government to hold us (the consumer) responsible for cleaning up their mess? Especially considering that they put more money into their packaging and advertising than their products... Just sayin'

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Gavin
(@gavin)
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Topic starter  

Is there a hole in that hat of yours, Tony, because you appear to be talking out of it.  

Even if humans only occupied 10% of the earth's surface (which depends heavily on how you define "occupied"), by my math, that would come to about 3% of the total surface, not 1%. Even if my math is wrong, it doesn't really matter, because the amount of land occupied by human beings doesn't figure into any calculations. It's pretty much irrelevant.

Water vapor is indeed a greenhouse gas, but what causes it to increase is a general warming of the atmosphere, caused by other factors, especially other gases. As the concentration of other gases increases, so does the amount of water vapor, compounding the effect. It is a cause of warming but also a symptom. It's also complicated because some scientists contend that increasing water vapor in the form of clouds could deflect some of the sun's energy, balancing out some of the warming effect.

I base my belief in climate change on these things:

1. We can see it happening all around us. Less where I live than in other parts of the world, but everywhere.

2. This is what climate scientists predicted as early as the 1980s based on humans pumping more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Of course, it could just have been a lucky guess, if "lucky" is the correct word.

3. I don't believe that there is a conspiracy of almost all climate scientists to mislead us. Many climate change deniers subscribe to the biggest and most ridiculous conspiracy theory in history. They also tend to believe and propagate other outlandish nonsense.  

4. There are very few if any reputable climate scientists who deny man-made climate change. Those who do tend to be non-scientists or scientists with qualifications in other scientific disciplines who have set themselves up as experts. Some were sponsored by fossil fuel companies.

I really don't understand how this has become a political issue. How has acknowledging it and suggesting we should take steps to address it become a liberal or (gasp) "socialist" viewpoint, while closing our eyes to the obvious has become associated with a conservative stance?

 

I may or may not be an enigma
http://mysteriousbeings.com


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JAPOV
(@japov)
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Lol... The math gets them every time. Gavin, even if we did occupy 3% of this planet the question still remains... How exactly does that 3% destroy 300 mi x 197 million mi2 of atmosphere? I understand the climatologists claim that it’s a cumulative effect over time, but when you consider that there have always been other forces at work on this planet 10,000 times greater than us, the math still doesn’t add up. "Why does this have to be a political issue?" Simple, some factions of government have always used scare tactics to prey on the ignorant and easily misled. 

For the record, I’m all for being a good steward and holding industry accountable for pollution and trash. I’m even a strong proponent of alternative energy sources. What I’m against is any government powerful enough to tell me how to live, keep me in the dark and feed me crap like an ignorant mushroom, then turn right around and hold me accountable for their own mess... which was created out of their own greed and methods of control to begin with.

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Gavin
(@gavin)
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No problem with the sentiments in that second paragraph, T, although you could just as easily make the argument that more government control could have reined in some of the excesses of corporations. Of course, it's often precisely those interests that have government in their pockets anyway, so where would that restraint come from?

As for the questions in the first paragraph, answering them is what climate science is for LOL. I have to say, I don't get the relevance of the percentage of the planet "occupied" by human beings and how you can extrapolate that into a calculation regarding the contents of the atmosphere. The math does add up. It's based on empirical observation, as the best science always is. Changes in the content of the atmosphere are observable. Theories can be formed from these observations, leading to predictions. When these theories are borne out by observable facts in the present, this lends credence to predictions of the future based on those theories.

And, as usual, you and I would disagree about who the ignorant and easily misled are. I think the only thing we ever agree on is music and the importance of friendship. It's amazing we still talk to each other LOL.

I may or may not be an enigma
http://mysteriousbeings.com


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JAPOV
(@japov)
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Well, it’s expected of the easily misled to become emotionally invested in what they believe is right... Especially when "theoretical ideologies" are born of and engineered to appeal to illogical and emotional types to begin with... ? 

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Gary E. Andrews
(@gary-e-andrews)
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Ah! A mathematician! At last! I've been wanting someone with math skills to put a number on the quantity of carbon dioxide put into the atmosphere by The Industrial-Scale Burning Revolution. And the amounts detected in the geologic record and ice cores in the past. Then we can compare the two and learn about other cause and effect in the past and know what to expect in the future.
I've been wondering when the atmosphere had as much carbon dioxide in it as it does now in the past, and what the source of it was, pre-Industrial-Scale Burning Revolution.
Scientific Method seeks cause and effect. What caused the the effect of water vapor going  into the atmosphere and precipitating out as snow at the poles, loading up a glacial ice sheet around planet Earth  that then slid over the landscape, southward, to the latitude of Chillicothe, Ohio. Then, what caused the effect of that mile high glacier to melt and retreat, ending the ice age (The Pleistocene) and commencing the last 12,800 years of interglacial 'norm' (The Holocene) where The Human Phenomenon has evolved a global culture?
I knew a mathematician would be able to supply the answers. Math doesn't lie, unless the equation is faulty.
Incidentally, the oceans are acidified with carbon dioxide, the known source of which is The Industrial-Scale Burning Revolution, and not just the 70% surface but deeply and completely. Every living thing in the ocean lives in a chronically acidic environment now, for now. Acid chases oxygen out of water and living tissues , making them prone to diseases, like cancer.

Despite 1,000's of years of Songwriting humans have not exhausted the possibilities. There will always be another Song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com


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JAPOV
(@japov)
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Oh, come on Gavin! Christian... Logical... Emotional... Recently Divorced... LOL, what are you waiting for...?

Again, more theory and hypothesis Gary. Get back in your "made in China" time machine and factor in plate tectonics and volcanic activity in the Mariana Trench... not to mention the Hawaiian Islands and others...

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Gary E. Andrews
(@gary-e-andrews)
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Never mind. Forget I said anything. 

Despite 1,000's of years of Songwriting humans have not exhausted the possibilities. There will always be another Song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com


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JAPOV
(@japov)
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Yea, probably a good idea Gary.... I just heard what Joe Biden said about union rules....

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Gavin
(@gavin)
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@japov

Joe Biden's labor policies are not relevant to this discussion, which should really be about how brilliant I am and how this is the best song ever written, etc. Not to say that it can't be discussed here, but it should be in the "Off Topic" section. I can't be sure, but I have a feeling Admin might agree with me 🙂

I may or may not be an enigma
http://mysteriousbeings.com


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JAPOV
(@japov)
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Joined: 5 years ago
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Yea, well... Problem is, I'm too easy to ignore over there ? I'm done anyway oh fearless and gloriously harmonious one! ? 

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MartinG
(@marting)
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Well, again, I think your song is great. The Song itself is funny AND has a political message. I will never understand how any person could "deny" that there actually IS a change in our climate and that it´s man-made. But that´s something else to discuss. 

Thank you Gavin for writing such great songs!

Every once in a while I get in the mood or so... and start to play...


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JAPOV
(@japov)
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It takes a very special kind of wisdom Martin. For example, have you ever read the book of Revelation? When God returns at the end of tribulations, what are you going to say...? "I’m so sorry Lord, I shouldn’t have thrown all those McDonald’s wrappers out the window of my gas guzzling SUV..." LOLOL..... ? 

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MartinG
(@marting)
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Posted by: @japov

It takes a very special kind of wisdom Martin. For example, have you ever read the book of Revelation? When God returns at the end of tribulations, what are you going to say...? "I’m so sorry Lord, I shouldn’t have thrown all those McDonald’s wrappers out the window of my gas guzzling SUV..." LOLOL..... ? 

Why would any person in the world go to McDonalds? The meat they sell is not even organic...it´s mass-production.
JUST SAY NO!!!!

Every once in a while I get in the mood or so... and start to play...


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JAPOV
(@japov)
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Posts: 1154
 

And "mass production" is just another way of saying "for profit". I don’t believe you realize just how right you are Martin ? 

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